tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15872122.post7717428079561825985..comments2023-10-09T12:55:26.688-04:00Comments on The Burning Taper: Sound familiar? Episcopalian diocese breaks away from mother church to return to old waysWidow's Sonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05135009678671539418noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15872122.post-54896015089706083512007-12-15T16:36:00.000-05:002007-12-15T16:36:00.000-05:00Thank you brother Naylor. That's essentially what ...Thank you brother Naylor. That's essentially what I understood to be what is meant by 'freedom of conscience'. I've read this site before as well. <BR/><BR/>It still does not answer the paradox that freedom of conscience offers.My Name is Still Nobodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04850691431078980626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15872122.post-89531263239973746852007-12-13T14:24:00.000-05:002007-12-13T14:24:00.000-05:00Tony, I understand your point. I think the object ...Tony, I understand your point. I think the object is (or should be) to thoroughly vet any proposed candidate for his overall suitability for membership, which we should be doing in any case. (Please read all of this in a gender-inclusive sense, where applicable.) This may involve discussing matters of spiritual or religious nature with him, but this should be done in a way that it does not become some religious litmus test. This requires a great deal of responsibility on the part of those who would be questioning that proposed candidate.<BR/><BR/>A similar matter, though not identical, is the way in which I try to deal with the right of the candidate to select the VSL appropriate to his own faith. We (speaking of the mainstream) <I>must</I> ask whether he professes faith in a supreme being, but <I>must not</I> question him as to the name by which he recognizes, or the manner (religion) in which he worships, that being. So, what I do is to simply wait until <I>after his election to receive the degrees</I> to ask which is his preferred VSL.<BR/><BR/>I don't know of this helps any, but my point is that surely a way can be found to get to know a proposed candidate fully, without making his religion, or lack thereof, a condition of membership.LightTravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17743585551704092262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15872122.post-66489548479463629572007-12-13T09:03:00.000-05:002007-12-13T09:03:00.000-05:00Brother AA, I'm not a member of the GOUSA, nor do ...Brother AA, I'm not a member of the GOUSA, nor do I suppose I'll ever be, but I am a great admirer of the GOdF. You should really take a look at their website and find out what 'absolute freedom of conscience' means in context. It does not mean 'whatever the hell you feel like doing.'<BR/><BR/>http://www.godf.org/foreign/uk/laicite_uk.htmlUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08615506339703514459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15872122.post-31656792938418878032007-12-11T14:51:00.000-05:002007-12-11T14:51:00.000-05:00Bro:. Howard,I have to take issue with that stance...Bro:. Howard,<BR/>I have to take issue with that stance. I believe that there are some atheist who ought to be allowed to become Masons and that there are some who ought not. Just like there are some Christians who ought to be allowed to become Masons and some who ought not. Not because the believe or don't believe, but because of how they came to and how they handle that belief. Therefore, I think that it is imperative that the lodge be able to ask questions about what a candidate believes and why if they so chose.<BR/>Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying that they lodge cannot brooch that subject with a candidate or face some sort of punishment from the GOUSA?<BR/>TonyTonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17788048321514242563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15872122.post-24347250456339000742007-12-11T14:06:00.000-05:002007-12-11T14:06:00.000-05:00Thanks for the facetious answer. Apparently, the G...Thanks for the facetious answer. Apparently, the G.O. doesn't expell dead men. That's about as straight an answer as I've gotten so far. Let's presuppose someone living is as unjust and cruel as Pol Pot or Hitler, has joined the G.O. without their knowledge, and is revealed as a murderer of thousands. They ARE alive and the ARE members of the G.O. Hypothetically, does the individual's 'freedom of conscience' preclude his being removed or not?My Name is Still Nobodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04850691431078980626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15872122.post-6603352872876654642007-12-11T13:50:00.000-05:002007-12-11T13:50:00.000-05:00Pol Pot and Adolph Hitler are dead. While I don't ...Pol Pot and Adolph Hitler are dead. While I don't think there are any Masonic restrictions on raising dead men, I doubt they'll be able to sign their petitions in their own handwriting.<BR/><BR/>— W.S.Widow's Sonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05135009678671539418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15872122.post-3692184812186035352007-12-11T13:39:00.000-05:002007-12-11T13:39:00.000-05:00I do have absolute Freedom of Conscience as a regu...I do have absolute Freedom of Conscience as a regular member. I took my oaths of my own free will and accord, and continue to stand by them of my own free will and accord with my Freedom of Conscience fully emploed.<BR/><BR/>The GL does NOT define what an 'atheist' is. The individual who considers themselves an atheist does that. It does not mean I can't work with an atheist. What about sitting in lodge with an underage individual, or a madman, or a fool? Are they excluded? What if the 'freedom of conscience' finds this ridiculous? It's not an attack, and not an intentional affront, but this is one of the biggest questions about the G.O. for me. I do NOT think it's right to allow Hitler or Pol Pot to join, for example. They do NOT represent Masonry at ALL, and should be barred.My Name is Still Nobodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04850691431078980626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15872122.post-22534020093001964212007-12-11T13:15:00.000-05:002007-12-11T13:15:00.000-05:00Tony,The lodges can work to the GAOTU or Universal...Tony,<BR/><BR/>The lodges can work to the GAOTU or Universal Freemasonry, but it cannot create a condition for membership based on religion/deity. From the perspective of the GOUSA Freemasonry is not a religion but a secular order. <BR/><BR/>GOUSA lodges can choose any or all VSLs, and/or The White Book and/or Anderson's Constitutions. They can offer prayers to the GAOTU. They can work the rituals of their choice. They cannot, however, discriminate on the basis of religion/deity.<BR/><BR/>Every potential candidate and member is afforded absolute freedom of conscience.<BR/><BR/>The GOUSA has been established to protect the rights of the brethren under our Constitutions and By-Laws. Absolute freedom of conscience is guaranteed by Masonic law under the GOUSA.<BR/><BR/>I recommend that you read through our web site to get a better understanding of what we mean by "absolute freedom of conscience" and laicite. <BR/><BR/>www.GrandOrientUSA.org<BR/><BR/>I hope I have done a good job answering your questions. It is our hope to explain everything as clearly as possible so that no one is confused.Howard Roarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06330868779452286221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15872122.post-67359269070757894152007-12-11T11:45:00.000-05:002007-12-11T11:45:00.000-05:00If the lodges are sovereign and are free, than sho...If the lodges are sovereign and are free, than shouldn't they be able to work to the GAOTU OR the Glory of Universal Freemasonry? If the can work to the glory of the GAOTU, shouldn't they be allowed to admit only those who believe in the GAOTU?<BR/><BR/>I was under the impression that the point of the GOUSA was to transfer the sovereignty back to the lodges...Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17788048321514242563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15872122.post-21086103072744235822007-12-11T10:37:00.000-05:002007-12-11T10:37:00.000-05:00Tony,Questions regarding religion and/or deity are...Tony,<BR/><BR/>Questions regarding religion and/or deity are never asked of the candidate. What they believe is entirely up to them, and not the business of the lodge. The lodges agree to absolute freedom of conscience as a part of receiving their Charter. If they wish to discriminate based on religious beliefs then they can seek a Charter from another Masonic body.<BR/><BR/>The GOUSA has no requirement for a letter from a state Grand Lodge for visitation, but if the brother wishes to visit and remain a part of his present lodge then it would be required by his Grand Lodge. I said this out of respect for those brothers who do not share the same freedoms that we have. It would be most unfortunate if one of them were expelled by their Grand Lodge due to a misunderstanding.Howard Roarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06330868779452286221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15872122.post-30486991505479660802007-12-11T09:47:00.000-05:002007-12-11T09:47:00.000-05:00Howard,A couple questions for you:"We do not requi...Howard,<BR/><BR/>A couple questions for you:<BR/><BR/>"We do not require a belief in deity to be a Freemason because this would violate the individual's right to absolute freedom of conscience."<BR/><BR/>So the GOUSA tells the lodges that the MUST accept atheists? Doesn't this go against the independence that you claim to give you lodges?<BR/><BR/>"You are welcome to visit our lodges with the written permission of your respective Grand Masters."<BR/><BR/>Why do you require the written permission of the GM? I can't see the GL of MI's GM taking the time to write a note to the Master of ANY lodge saying that a specific Mason has permission to visit, weather of not the lodge is recognized. And again, isn't this something that ought to be left in the lodges hands?<BR/>Doesn't it also violate the individual's freedom of conscious? I mean, if I want to visit your lodge but my GM doesn't approve, why should you care that he doesn't approve?<BR/><BR/>S&F,<BR/>TonyTonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17788048321514242563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15872122.post-40212493446636878002007-12-10T22:57:00.000-05:002007-12-10T22:57:00.000-05:00"While we do not desire recognition and intend to ..."While we do not desire recognition and intend to remain separate Masonically, we do believe that mutual respect and consideration between our organizations is an essential element of the future success of both."<BR/><BR/>This is exactly what I would like to see. In some opinions, this is a revolution. In mine, it's a repeat of a long history. We don't have to sit in lodge together to work together. I look forward to this new era of cooperation. We don't have to agree on religion, politics, or anything to work toward improving things.My Name is Still Nobodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04850691431078980626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15872122.post-82276954902582729632007-12-10T20:26:00.000-05:002007-12-10T20:26:00.000-05:00Dear Bro. Anagram and all brothers,The idea that t...Dear Bro. Anagram and all brothers,<BR/><BR/>The idea that there is a "revolution" taking place is erroneous. The Grand Orient of France has existed for centuries. They were started by the Grand Lodge of London in the 1730's. What we are witnessing is a revival of the Masonic philosophy of the original Moderns of 1717. <BR/><BR/>Some Masons have discovered that they agree with this philosophy more than that of the present system. It's hardly a revolution. It's more a change of affiliation due to philosophical issues.<BR/><BR/>I believe that many Masons are having a difficult time distinguishing between all of the events that have taken place. Halcyon's departure has nothing to do with the Grand Orient. <BR/><BR/>The new Grand Orient of the USA has a different perspective of Freemasonry. Our Masonic philosophy is the same as the Grand Orient of France. We are not the enemy of the Grand Lodges or other Masons. <BR/><BR/>The people posting on this blog don't seem to understand the differences between the the Grand Orient and the Grand Lodges. I would like to rectify this situation, if I am not first shouted down.<BR/><BR/>We believe in the absolute freedom of conscience of all human beings, and in the separation of church and state. We do not require a belief in deity to be a Freemason because this would violate the individual's right to absolute freedom of conscience.<BR/><BR/>Our lodges are free to choose the ritual they will use. We have many available to choose from. This freedom is also closely associated with the concept of absolute freedom of conscience.<BR/><BR/>We place an emphasis on educating one another in Masonry and many other subjects. It is our belief that knowledge and understanding leads to tolerance, which in turn, leads to universal peace and harmony. <BR/><BR/>It’s important that everyone understand that there are significant differences between the GOUSA and its predecessor the UGLA. The original founders are now a minority. While they had many good ideas, their implementation of them was not equal to their intentions. There was simply too much built-up anger against the Grand Lodges. <BR/><BR/>The GOUSA has no antipathy for the state Grand Lodges. We disagree with their philosophy and about the meaning and purpose of Freemasonry. We are not claiming that they are wrong or that we are right, only that we agree to disagree.<BR/><BR/>In the future there will be many opportunities where we can all work together, especially regarding Masonic research and education. While we do not desire recognition and intend to remain separate Masonically, we do believe that mutual respect and consideration between our organizations is an essential element of the future success of both. In relation to this we would like for everyone (on both sides) to step down and cease the name calling and bickering. It is un-brotherly and un-Masonic. <BR/><BR/>You are welcome to visit our lodges with the written permission of your respective Grand Masters. Everyone is welcome to social and educational events. We are all Masons and all brothers in humanity. Let us try to seek out those things that we share in common and learn not to fear and hate one another over our differences.<BR/><BR/>So mote it be.Howard Roarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06330868779452286221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15872122.post-49421845715849655382007-12-10T19:09:00.000-05:002007-12-10T19:09:00.000-05:00Some appear to have it that all 41 GLs in this cou...Some appear to have it that all 41 GLs in this country that do recognize PHA, and all recognized lodges outside of this country, across the world, are guilty by association with a small handful of lodges in the Southern Jurisdiction, are racist. Despite amazing strides to recognize PHA, some are willing to forget that and tear down the great progress made. It's sad to see the irrationality in this. Evolution is better and kinder than revolution, and regular Masonry IS evolving-just not to the likings of some.My Name is Still Nobodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04850691431078980626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15872122.post-68808348667757006272007-12-10T17:03:00.000-05:002007-12-10T17:03:00.000-05:00Objective:I don't believe all PHA and all Regular ...Objective:<BR/><BR/>I don't believe all PHA and all Regular Masons are racist. I can not look into the heart of all ~60,000 of them—only the GAOTU is capable of that. However, I would wager that there are bigots in both institutions. <BR/><BR/>Using your logic, and his, would mean that every GL in the country, and every Master Mason in their jurisdictions, were racists until 1989 or until their GL recognized PHA.<BR/><BR/>BTW, should I consider your handle “Objective” an adjective or a noun? You don’t seem impartial or neutral, but if your goal is to be a pest you have succeeded.<BR/><BR/>No reply needed.<BR/><BR/>Peace.Metatronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14655518205015764684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15872122.post-43663680222506182812007-12-10T16:01:00.000-05:002007-12-10T16:01:00.000-05:00Just because Prince Hall Masons in NC are racists ...Just because Prince Hall Masons in NC are racists doesn't justify the fact that Grand Lodge Masons are racists too.<BR/><BR/>He was ultimately right on the issue.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16499525388190170241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15872122.post-52222829582367333222007-12-10T15:43:00.000-05:002007-12-10T15:43:00.000-05:00Look Michael Vick (Objective), no one is tearing a...Look Michael Vick (Objective), no one is tearing anyone apart. Stop with the melodramatic play-by-play.<BR/><BR/>Mr. 2 Bowl Cain wants to call NC Masons, or at the very least our GL officers, a bunch of racists. <BR/><BR/>My question to him is: If Regular Masons are racist for not recognizing PHA; should PHA Masons be considered racist for opposing visitation to their lodges? <BR/><BR/>He won’t answer that, he wants to deflect the question with name calling. If he didn’t expect someone to call him on his statement, then he should have kept it to himself.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Peace.Metatronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14655518205015764684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15872122.post-20389001414844522472007-12-10T15:11:00.000-05:002007-12-10T15:11:00.000-05:00It's interesting to watch how Masons viciously att...It's interesting to watch how Masons viciously attack one another. I can only imagine how they act in lodge! They're like pit bulls ripping each other to pieces.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16499525388190170241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15872122.post-69533069085404913202007-12-10T14:47:00.000-05:002007-12-10T14:47:00.000-05:002 Bowl Cain:Oh, you won't answer a simple question...2 Bowl Cain:<BR/><BR/>Oh, you won't answer a simple question, but its okay for you to call me a cave man, and now a racist. <BR/><BR/>Can you even define racism?<BR/><BR/>No reply needed <BR/><BR/>2 Bowl Cain: The First Known Artificer, or Cunning Worker, in B.S.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Peace.Metatronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14655518205015764684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15872122.post-39084416811595367852007-12-10T14:12:00.000-05:002007-12-10T14:12:00.000-05:00who r u to demand an answer from me?a member of a ...who r u to demand an answer from me?<BR/>a member of a racist GL!<BR/> I cannot have discourse with racists!<BR/>Thanks for your concern though metatronTubal Cainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00704479584240584425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15872122.post-88485880239609189882007-12-10T11:45:00.000-05:002007-12-10T11:45:00.000-05:002 Bowl Cain:Why don't you answer the question inst...2 Bowl Cain:<BR/><BR/>Why don't you answer the question instead of deflecting and changing the subject.Metatronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14655518205015764684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15872122.post-59286822803955879632007-12-10T11:30:00.000-05:002007-12-10T11:30:00.000-05:00Metatron do you belong to the Grand Lodge of Trogl...Metatron do you belong to the Grand Lodge of Troglodytes?Tubal Cainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00704479584240584425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15872122.post-25083068666042365592007-12-10T11:27:00.000-05:002007-12-10T11:27:00.000-05:00Thank you for that clarification Brother WS. Mayb...Thank you for that clarification Brother WS. Maybe that is what I was doing. In the ECUSA I see a conservative group breaking off from a liberal group and in Freemasonry I see a more liberal group breaking way from a more conservative group. Thus the confusion for me in the comparison. <BR/><BR/>And, I'll confess, as a liberal Protestant Minister I'm not all that sympathetic with the goals of those breaking away in the ECUSA. Nor as a Mason am I particularly sympathetic to Freemasonry breaking apart over differences.<BR/><BR/>I appreciate your clarification.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15872122.post-17340570973545640982007-12-10T11:20:00.000-05:002007-12-10T11:20:00.000-05:00Bro. Bonney,You being a Christian minister may be ...Bro. Bonney,<BR/><BR/>You being a Christian minister may be coloring your ability to understand the comparison, making you want to look at (and perhaps judge) the specific issues, not the overall concept. I'm talking here about the forest; perhaps you're looking at the trees. <BR/><BR/>I purposely did not mention in the article the specifics of the breakaway of some congregations and dioceses, because the specifics aren't the point of the comparison.<BR/><BR/>The breakaways, both Masonic and Episcopalian, believe that their mother organizations have strayed from the original course set for them by the founders of those groups. The breakaways see themselves as wanting to return to those roots.<BR/><BR/>According to GOUSA'ers, the current mainstream American grand lodge Masonry does not reflect the ideals and goals of the original Masonic order. Likewise, the Diocese of San Joaquin believes that the American Episcopal Church has strayed from their original Bible-based theology.<BR/><BR/>— W.S.Widow's Sonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05135009678671539418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15872122.post-40226497114849442172007-12-10T11:12:00.000-05:002007-12-10T11:12:00.000-05:002 Bowl Cain:And I guess you will agree that the NC...2 Bowl Cain:<BR/><BR/>And I guess you will agree that the NC Prince Hall Grand Lodge should be consider clandestine for wanting recognition without visitation. <BR/><BR/>That's right, PHA of NC wants recognition from our GL, but doesn't want us to sit in their lodges. I guess they're racists too.Metatronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14655518205015764684noreply@blogger.com