The past couple of weeks a "discussion," if you can call it that, has bounced between this site and the blog of a fundamentalist Baptist preacher from Kentucky named Josh Buice. Josh first popped up on our radar for his article trashing Freemasonry. His anti-Masonic rant consisted of the usual well-known anti-Masonic drivel — you know, Masons worship the Devil, conduct Satanic rituals, secretly control the world, whatever.
Several Masons including the Widow's Son visited his site and posted comments assuring him that none of what he said was true, and offered to set him right by answering his questions about Masonry.
Pastor Josh never asked any questions about Freemasonry, except mockingly, but took upon himself to tell us what we were — sinners going to hell, even though most of the Masons who posted on his site proclaimed their Christianity. Additionally, almost all the Masons in most every lodge I've been in are Baptists — but still, Josh insists we're all going to Hell unless we toe his doctrinal line.
Lately Pastor Josh's rants have been along the lines of, "One day... I am going to a literal heaven which has literal foundations (12), a literal street of gold, 12 literal gates made of one literal pearl (per gate), and a literal city that is garnished with literal precious stones!" Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!
In the past few days, the conversation has gotten rather heated, and no one is convincing anyone of anything. Yesterday and today the Baptists's tone has become kind of belligerent, with Pastor Josh trying to make fun of how many, or rather, how few, people are currently visiting BurningTaper.com. "Your audience is rather slim! Your following is rather slim!" he gloats in his latest comment.
Considering this blog is fairly new, and in its first few months was only intended to be read by the members of one local Masonic lodge, and that we've only in the last three or four weeks been actively seeking a wider readership, I'd say our traffic is exceptional. That little map from ClustrMaps down in the lower right corner has only been installed for the last two days. It shows we had 191 unique visitors during that time.
Ninety-five people a day times thirty days times twelve months equals over 34,000 people a year. At that rate, if all our visitors were Georgia Masons — our "target market," if we were to actually define one — statistically we'd reach every one of them in about a year and a half.
Compare that to the number of Baptists in the United States, that is, to the number of people attracted to the brand of Christianity that Pastor Josh proclaims (over and over!) is the One True Way to Heaven. Let's see who really has a rather slim following.
(Numbers and percentages used here are approximate, and most are from 2001.)
How many Americans consider themselves Baptists? According to TeachingAboutReligion.org, 33.8 million Americans, or 16.3%, are Baptists. Most live in the old Confederacy, so we'll assume (incorrectly, but for the sake of this discussion) that all Baptists are Southern Baptists. Fifty-one million Americans, or 24.5%, are Catholics, and 29,500,000 (14.1%) Americans say they are not religious.
ABC News reports that about 52% of Baptists say they go to church regularly. (Surveys show that most people lie on surveys, but we'll ignore that, since we know Baptists wouldn't lie.)
Assuming that the non-attenders don't really feel the strong passion and zeal that Pastor Josh does, let's assume that the number of people on his team in the USA is about (.52 x 33.8 million) 17.6 million. Let's call that the number of Josh-like, fervent, literalist, "God said it and I believe it!" fundamentalist Southern Baptist Christians in the USA — the "following," as Josh put it, the "audience" for his version of Christianity.
Slim? In the scheme of things, you bet! But wait, there's more!
There are 2.1 billion (with a B) earthlings proclaiming to be Christians, but only 70 million Baptists worldwide! That's a little over three percent of the professing Christians on this planet who, according to Josh's reasoning, are "real" Christians, that is, who believe the Bible is the "holy, inspired, infallible, inerrant, immutable, never dying, highly exalted, final authority Word of God!," as Josh's blog masthead screams. Catholics, by far the largest Christian group in the world, with one billion fifty million (1,050,000,000) adherents, apparently aren't official Christians, according to Josh the Baptist. Neither is the Eastern Orthodox Church with its 250 million members, or virtually any other denomination of Christianity, because they all allow some "wiggle room" for errors in interpretation and/or translation.
So is there a slim audience for Josh's version of Christianity? Let's see, worldwide, Baptists account for what, about one percent of the world's population, and three percent of the Christians? I guess Heaven will be only lightly populated, since only Baptists will be there. But God, will it be NOISY!
Heaven | Christianity | Baptists
A thoughtful post. I am often put in an uncomfortable position when I try to have a discussion with people like this. While it is certainly true that there is nothing wrong with Freemasonry (there isn't) and it is also true that in this nation the vast majority of Freemasons are Christian I personally have a small problem. I am not a Christian. Yes, I believe Jesus Christ was the son of God but, then again, I believe we are *all* the son of God.
ReplyDeleteThe vast majority of all Freemasons would certainly support the 'teachings' of Jesus Christ since, in general, these teachings are one and the same as those we are taught in Freemasonry.
However I am not, myself personally, a conventional Christian. I am cautious when I engage in dialouge with these folks since they pretty much presume I'm a pagan, secular-humanist, nature lover or, worse yet, they think I'm a rationalist. Since a lot of this is actually more or less true, I struggle.
I knew Freemasonry was 'right' for me when I read half of the things anti-Mason sites accuse us of and I wondered "What's so wrong with that?"
I don't really know how you fight this battle in any other way than confronting them with this simple question. "Do you believe that citizens of this country are entitled to freedom of personal religious belief?"
The fundamental conflict is this. Freemasons, by definition, are tolerant of any individuals personal religious belief and most of these fundamentalist Christians are not.
Moreover, they usually preach a form of evangelicilsm which actually requires them to enforce their faith on others.
What can you say...there are some basic principles we are never going to meet on.
That's ok. As long as I know I am on the side of the ideas that this nation was founded upon, I feel pretty comfortable.
Oz, damn you!
ReplyDeleteOUT-FRIGINN-STANDING!!! SCORE ONE FOR THE WIDOW'S SON!!!
ReplyDeleteYOU KNOW, IT'S NICE TO SEE HARD DATA MAKING FOOLS OUT OF THE "FUNDIES"!
May I repost this on my blog???
I'm not trying to make fools out of anyone, F. Roy. I'm just pointing out that in the Big Scheme of Things, Southern Baptists make a lot of noise, but don't have the corner on Truth, and they don't really have the numbers behind them, even though they seem to think they do. Every time I read a post from Pastor Josh, I'm reminded of the punchline from the old joke about all the rooms in Heaven: "Shh! That's the Baptist Heaven. They think they're the only ones here."
ReplyDeleteStill, there is always room at the table for another opinion, as long as it's given in a reasonably logical and reasonably polite way. I think in our zeal to make our points, we've all been a bit less than courteous lately.
Brother,
ReplyDeleteI've found I had to walk away from Pastor Buice for the time, because of the belligerence. That and his inability to differentiate us between our posts, I got the feeling he was reading our posts less and just quoting bible verses to make his point.
Ironically, his variety in verse quoting smacked of his "Pop-Corn" preaching in that it was all over the place. But then, I suppose, it wasn't a sermon he was giving, it was justification for his ideas. One thing that struck me was the degree of the intolerance in him, and that this is representative of middle America today. When dis this become the norm?
Keep up the great work here. A "few" voices are better than none, and with time more will start to resonate. It is still a "new" technology for may people. Enlightenment does not come easy, it's painful, brutal, and messy.
God Speed.
Masonic Traveller,
ReplyDeleteI too had to walk away for some time because he was so aggressive and yes; angry. His side-kick; whom I have begun referring to as "Wonder Chip" seems to tag along on "Super Josh's" coat-tails being the ever-present "yes-man" and defender of his master against the onslaught of us evil Masons.
Pastor Josh and others like him are products of modern fundamentalist seminaries and "Open Bible" theology. Anyone with charisma and a tax-free status can open a Church in America and instigate their own brand of Christianity upon the populace. That is dangerous doctrine but it is hardly a new thing.
Peter, Paul and even John of Patmos wrote of doctrinal heresies within the faith at several of the early Christian Churches.
Today, the followers of Nestorius still exist in parts of Egypt, Syria, and Ethiopia.
The message from Heaven is still the same..."Do not cause schisms among the faithful!" But that message is getting ever more distant due to American/Protestant Fundamentalism, Open Bible interpretation, Free Will Baptist doctrine (or lack of doctrine) and some distinctly non-Christian sources (ie- Mormonism, Seventh Day Adventist, and Jehovah's Witnesses). Even the Episcopal Church USA has put itself on VERY shaky ecumenical ground for it's dogmatic views on the Creed and human sexuality.
I believe that these divisions are what will eventually bring about the utter demise of the Christian faith. While Islam and certain versions of Judaism are on an uprise in converts; Christianity remains almost static in it's membership. This is just proof that the Christian constituency is being failed by their leadership.
F. Roy Dean Schlipp
Mr. Widow’s Son,
ReplyDeleteIt would do you well to quote me in proper context. I have asked on several occasions to quote me in context – yet, you continue to misquote and place words in my mouth.
If your readers would read my blog site - Practical Theology Discussions they would see who initiated the conversation – who spoke rather disrespectfully towards Christians – and who mockingly spoke of “other virgin Messiahs” along with making fun of the account of Noah’s Ark and the great flood – as if it did not occur.
Chip has asked for you to quote him in context – and you continue to misquote him on your site as well. I guess it is easier to paint a picture of a “fundamentalist” when he actually makes the statements that you quoted.
First – call me a “fundamentalist” or “literalist” if you like – I view myself as a Bible preacher who loves people. You have repeatedly accused me of banning Freemasons from my church – but I have never done that! You have claimed that all I did was say you were going to hell – but that is not true. I have lovingly spoken to you with compassion and pleaded with you to stop degrading the Holy Bible, Jesus Christ, and His blood sacrifice.
If the Georgia Masons – mostly Baptist – read the full story on our site – along with your degrading picture of Jesus Christ – they will have a more difficult time with you – than they will with me. I was born and raised in Georgia. All of my family is from Georgia. I know how most Georgia Masons believe – my uncle is a Georgia Mason. He will have a much more difficult time with your degrading comments about Christ than with my opposition to Freemasonry.
I love people – I care about you and all of your Mason brothers. Why do you think I have been writing back and forth with you for over a solid week? Because I care! I don’t stand and preach against Freemasonry – I speak forth the truth of God’s Word. The claims I made about Freemasonry were done so after 6 months of study and preparation. I interviewed people, read books, and then wrote my material. I know where I stand is true – based upon the Holy Scriptures. Remember – If you believe the Scriptures – I must be right! God does not like you to reverence or respect other gods! He does not want you to be a “brother” with men who may worship other gods – Read 2 Corinthians 6:14-18.
Therefore, in order for you to make Freemasonry justified in your own head along with others in your Lodge – you must continue to attack the Sufficiency of Holy Scripture. If you can turn Scripture into allegory – you can win the battle. However, once the Scriptures actually mean what they say – Freemasonry is in big trouble. Therefore, you need to understand – the Holy Scriptures are Holy – and they are True!
I plead with you to cease your rants about Christians and about their literal view of Scripture. Please stop degrading Jesus Christ, and please stop degrading the Bible.
In love,
Josh Buice
Preacher Josh,
ReplyDeleteYou said: If your readers would read my blog site - Practical Theology Discussions they would see who initiated the conversation – who spoke rather disrespectfully towards Christians – and who mockingly spoke of “other virgin Messiahs” along with making fun of the account of Noah’s Ark and the great flood – as if it did not occur.
I say: The very first comment on your blog about Freemasonry accused the Fraternity of having about it "the stench of unrighteousness." Months before any of your current Freemason visitors showed up, you and your friends were taking potshots at the Craft. We came in peace to bring you the Truth about Masonry; you threw it our faces, warning even those who proclaimed to be Christians they would burn in Hell if they didn't forsake Freemasonry.
Other virgin Messiahs? Heh... I said, other world-saviors who were born of virgins; big difference. And I never said any of them existed. I said the stories and myths existed. And Noah's Ark? Yeah, that's a pretty tall tale if taken literally.
You said: First – call me a “fundamentalist” or “literalist” if you like – I view myself as a Bible preacher who loves people. You have repeatedly accused me of banning Freemasons from my church – but I have never done that! You have claimed that all I did was say you were going to hell – but that is not true. I have lovingly spoken to you with compassion and pleaded with you to stop degrading the Holy Bible, Jesus Christ, and His blood sacrifice.
I say: You're the one who indicated Freemasons weren't welcome in your church. You're the one who once provided a long list once of "sinners" and "heretics" you personally wouldn't let become members of your church.
You said: If the Georgia Masons – mostly Baptist – read the full story on our site – along with your degrading picture of Jesus Christ – they will have a more difficult time with you – than they will with me. I was born and raised in Georgia. All of my family is from Georgia. I know how most Georgia Masons believe – my uncle is a Georgia Mason. He will have a much more difficult time with your degrading comments about Christ than with my opposition to Freemasonry.
I say: Do you annoy the heck out of your uncle, too, telling him he'll burn in Hell for being a Mason? If he's a heathen going-to-Hell Mason, why would he have an issue with my comments about The Christ?
You "know how most Georgia Masons believe"? Which Georgia Mason told you all the lies you continue to push in your blog and via your support for the Ankerberg Gang? Worshipping Hiram Abiff and all that? Did your uncle and all these other Georgia Masons you know so well tell you that?
You said: I love people – I care about you and all of your Mason brothers.
I say: You preach hate and dissension, Josh. You can call it love all you want; I don't feel it. I don't see it in your words. I see a man fervent in his beliefs, one desperate to be right, but a man who if given a chance would launch a bloody Inquisition against all who disagree with his narrow, literalist view of the Bible.
You said: Remember – If you believe the Scriptures – I must be right! God does not like you to reverence or respect other gods! He does not want you to be a “brother” with men who may worship other gods – Read 2 Corinthians 6:14-18.
I say: Why is God jealous of other gods, if they don't exist? I have told you time and time again, God = Jehovah = Yahwah = YHWH = Great Architect of the Universe. "God" isn't His Only Name.
You said: Therefore, in order for you to make Freemasonry justified in your own head along with others in your Lodge – you must continue to attack the Sufficiency of Holy Scripture. If you can turn Scripture into allegory – you can win the battle. However, once the Scriptures actually mean what they say – Freemasonry is in big trouble. Therefore, you need to understand – the Holy Scriptures are Holy – and they are True!
I say: I don't HAVE to turn Scripture into allegory — it IS allegory. This isn't necessarily a Masonic belief; I've realized that not all of the Bible is literal since I was in 10-year old Sunday School, as have most Christians outside the Southern Baptist fold.
You say: I plead with you to cease your rants about Christians and about their literal view of Scripture. Please stop degrading Jesus Christ, and please stop degrading the Bible.
I say unto you: I haven't degraded Jesus or the Bible. I've simply offered a view that differs from your literalist interpretation. Lighten up. God has a sense of humor, you know. He's got to be laughing at us right now!
—Widow's Son