America isn't the only place where Freemasonry has lost its "influence."The provincial lodge of the Royal Order of Scotland is currently in last-minute negotiations with its Merchant City (a central district of Glasgow) landlord to keep its meeting place at the Trades Hall on Glassford Street, The Herald recently reported. Five Masonic lodges that previously also met there have already moved out of the building, which was built by stonemasons in 1791 and has provided meeting space for Masons and other union, guild and fraternal groups since 1824.
The Royal Order of Scotland is unable to pay the rent.
The Masonic organization dates back to at least 1741, and proclaims the King of Scots as its hereditary grand master. An empty chair is maintained at each meeting, awaiting the king's return.
Membership in the Royal Order of Scotland is by invitation only, and requires belief in Trinitarian Christianity. Most of the provincial grand lodges require that a candidate have been a Master Mason for at least five years, and to have shown outstanding service (e.g., held offices) to Freemasonry and/or the Church. Most lodges require as a prerequisite membership in the York or Scottish Rite as well as in at least one other Christian order, according to Wikipedia.
One member joked that Masonry certainly doesn't rule the world. "We don't even have influence over the place where we hold our meetings," he said.
Another unnamed Royal Order brother told a reporter that rising rents were an indication of "masonophobia."
Image: Breast star of a member of the Royal Order of Scotland
Masons | Royal Order of Scotland | Scottish Freemasonry | Freemasonry | Grand Lodge of the Royal Order of Scotland | Burning Taper | BurningTaper.com
MSM are spending way too much time scream we are not recognized, we are clandestine, and irregular.
ReplyDeleteAll the while their temples are burning down because of the LACK OF LEADERSHIP..............
Meh.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWhen they have a successful lodge like Halcyon they do everything they can to destroy it.
ReplyDeleteMaybe it's some kind of institutional insanity?
I seem to have stumbled again into the crybaby ward.
ReplyDeleteYep, mainstream Freemasonry keeps dying - I can understand why you're cryin'.
ReplyDeleteActually... it's kiiling itself... not sure if that qualifies for dying. Perhaps "institutional suicide" is a better term.
Quote from the story:
ReplyDeleteAnother unnamed Royal Order brother told a reporter that rising rents were an indication of "masonophobia."
Sounds more like economics to me.
The situation's no different locally for the average person; they can't afford renting or buying in the city so they go somewhere cheaper.
http://justamason.blogspot.com
Here in my state, the men who are invited to join the Royal Order of Scotland, are typically "title collectors." They're guys who're willing to pony up more money to buy more titles, to make themselves appear more important and respectable than they really are.
ReplyDeleteIt's little different with the York Rite College, the Allied Masonic Degrees, or numerous other "invitation-only clubs" within the Masonic club itself. Of course, all Masons are equal, it's just that a few are a lot more "equal" than others!
A fellow I know was invited to join the Royal Order of Scotland a few years ago, not too long after the Scottish Rite gave him his red hat (Knight Commander Court of Honor -- "KCCH"). He paid a bunch of money and I think he even had to travel to another state to watch a degree, which he said was about as interesting as watching paint dry. Not too long after that, however, he received his 33rd degree from the Scottish Rite, and now he's one of our state's grand officers, on track to become Grand Master in a few years.
Here, a man can faithfully serve his family, his community, and his lodge for an entire lifetime, and never "advance" past the degree of Master Mason. For those who get in with the right political clique, however, the sky's the limit. Never mind if they think the degrees are boring, and have no idea what they're supposed to mean or teach, as long as they can get a degree that not everyone else has, it proves they're better than everyone else who hasn't been similarly "honored."
Today's "mainstream" American Masonry is the best place I know for men of limited abilities to get their egos stroked. Most members aren't particularly prominent or successful in the real world, so they join the lodge in order to become a "Master," or even a "Prince of the Royal Secret!" It doesn't matter if they don't know what the royal secret is, if anyone asks, they can always say: "It's a secret!"
If the Royal Order of Scotland folds up, will the world be a significantly better or worse place? I doubt it, but a few guys who paid a thousand bucks or so for their titles probably won't be too happy.
-- Diogenes
"For all of my efforts I was offered membership in the Royal Order of Scotland. I felt honored by this but not truly worthy. While I had worked very hard there was so little to show for it. It was like running up a sand dune; one step forward, tow [sic] steps back."
ReplyDelete- Jeff Peace
The above was not meant as a rip on Jeff Peace, but as an example of the continual hypocrisy and double standard that is set by all of the folks who believe that MSM is corrupt.
Seriously guys, doesn't all of this negativity become a personal burden at some point?
I recognized immediately that Freemasonry was not what I expected soon after I joined. However, I still saw the truth and beauty behind the system and was able to get beyond the concept that I must make Freemasonry conform to my standards in order to feel at peace with it.
My lodge is full of older gentlemen who have very little clue of what the symbolism means, however, I can see that it has worked on them regardless. They are really decent and down to earth guys who I proudly call my brothers.
Every time I have thought about leaving the lodge -- as I get my esoteric pursuits fulfilled elsewhere -- I always ended up thinking that was it not for this generation, the fires of freemasonry would have died out in the 70's. I owe it to them to keep it alive and to add my light when and where I can.
Yes, gents, even in mainstream freemasonry, the light exists. If you want to reinvent the wheel to suit your personal tastes - have at it and good luck. I wish you all the best.
Seriously, tell us what you have discovered - illuminate us with the truths that we cannot see in the present system, but please, would you stop with the predictable "MSM will self destruct" every time a story comes out like this? That sentiment does not suit people who are supposedly in the pursuit of truth and light; it merely accentuates the obvious desire you have to watch MSM wither and die because it did not conform to what you thought it should be.
lvx,
ReplyDeleteI found the degrees of the Royal Order of Scotland to be among the most historically fascinating of any that I've witnessed in my time as a Mason. The degrees offer a unique perspective of the Rose Croix that is among the oldest known sources available. While they have clearly been modified and edited over the years they still retained much of their primitive nature. In many ways they reminded of the early rituals used in the Grand Lodge of London.
Is mainstream Freemasonry corrupt? Yes, there are without a doubt some major issues. This does not mean, however, that all mainstream Freemasons are corrupt.
I think there's a growing amount of white collar crime in mainstream Freemasonry along with prostitution and other issues.
There are also issues of social injustices and un-Masonic conduct that go uncorrected.
I can honestly say that I'm glad to no longer be associated with mainstream Freemasonry. There are better Masonic organizations out there.
I can understand how someone might feel flattered, or even "honored" to receive an invitation to join an "exclusive" club. There was a time when I would have felt that way myself, but then I saw the real light in Masonry.
ReplyDeleteSome might describe it as becoming "disillusioned," and that's undoubtedly a part of it, but more than that, my eyes were finally opened, and I realized that every Masonic body is really designed to dupe and fleece the masses for the benefit of a "reigning" leadership class.
Without rank-and-file, salt-of-the-earth members, the grand poobahs wouldn't have a kingdom. From a practical perspective, they wouldn't receive the economic benefits of free travel and generous expense accounts, but even more importantly, they'd have no "peasants" to lavish "grand honors" and accolades upon them when they grace lodges with their illustrious presence.
It's a power trip really, nothing more, nothing less, but none of it would be possible without the ordinary, average members. They're the worker bees in the beehive, while the grand poobahs are the drones, contributing very little, yet reaping the lions' share of the rewards.
Does that mean that Masonry is entirely bad? Not necessarily, but I don't think it means it's entirely good, either. It is what it is, but it isn't what most people think -- even people who are members, and firmly believe they know.
If you want to meet men of rare wisdom and integrity, search for those who've been extended invitations to join such groups, but politely turned them down. They know things you probably don't, and perhaps never will.
-- Diogenes
Diogenes,
ReplyDeleteI agree with you.
These invitation groups are pretty much Poo-Bah clubs that offer little in terms of enlightenment.
If you're interested in Masonic history and ritual development some of them offer unique insights into the ritual development of the fraternity.
Very few of those invited to join them have any real interest in the ritual or its historical value.
Of the invitational bodies there are only a couple that have any real historical value:
Royal Order of Scotland
Knight Masons
Red Cross of Constantine
The American 33rd degree of the Scottish Rite is more or less a joke. It doesn't even remotely resemble the original 33rd worked in France. It and the KYCH, etc. are a waste of time and money as far as scholarship and inquiry are concerned.
Of the invitational bodies there are only a couple that have any real historical value:
ReplyDeleteRoyal Order of Scotland
Knight Masons
Red Cross of Constantine
Provided that one subscribes to trinitarian christianity, which I do not, so I guess that I will never know.
I realized that every Masonic body is really designed to dupe and fleece the masses for the benefit of a "reigning" leadership class.
Do you even realize that you are faithfully regurgitating the anti-mason, conspiracy theory party line with that observation? What's next - accusations that the Poo-Bahs are all members of the Trilateral Commission, Bilderberg Group or the Illuminati?
They are, after all, Blue Lodge masons.
BTW, I see absolutely no evidence of that in my state. In fact, all I see are retired guys in the chairs, as no one can afford to devote their time to the bodies and hold down a job.
If you want to meet men of rare wisdom and integrity, search for those who've been extended invitations to join such groups, but politely turned them down. They know things you probably don't, and perhaps never will.
So... would these wise and virtuous men also be described as dupes? If they are so wise and virtuous, why are they active participants in a corrupt system? By their silence there is complicity - is there not?
Furthermore, are you saying that you have to be invited into appendant bodies in order to be a wise man?
Allow me to amend your statement:
If you want to meet men of rare wisdom and integrity, search for those who listen to the still voice of reason, not the siren song of ego.
"Ivx" writes:
ReplyDelete"Do you even realize that you are faithfully regurgitating the anti-mason, conspiracy theory party line with that observation?"
I just call 'em as I see 'em, and I've seen way too many. If Masonic conspiracy theorists say that as well, then at least one element of their theory has some validity.
"Ivx" writes:
"would these wise and virtuous men also be described as dupes? If they are so wise and virtuous, why are they active participants in a corrupt system? By their silence there is complicity - is there not?"
An argument could be made that they ARE (at least) passively complicit. Obviously, the counter-argument would be that once they were made Masons, their "obligations" irrevocably bound them to the craft. After all, there really is no way to honorably undo a solemn oath, and a truly virtuous man would know that.
"Ivx" writes:
"Furthermore, are you saying that you have to be invited into appendant bodies in order to be a wise man?"
I suppose if I'd written: "all poodles are dogs," you'd respond: "then all dogs have to be poodles, right?" Clearly, one doesn't follow the other, and for you to suggest otherwise is transparently disingenuous.
This I will say, however: I've never met a man who was offered an honor and turned it down, who wasn't an unusually intelligent and virtuous individual. I'm not saying that none exist, nor that only stupid people accept accolades, I'm just saying that by and large, people who decline kudos are usually exemplary individuals. Again, all poodles are dogs, but not all dogs are poodles.
"Ivx" writes:
"Allow me to amend your statement: 'If you want to meet men of rare wisdom and integrity, search for those who listen to the still voice of reason, not the siren song of ego.'"
I don't know that I'd characterize that as an "amendment" to my statement, but it seems to have merit on its own accord.
On a similar note, a rather famous wise man once opined:
"It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise, than for a man to hear the song of fools. For as the crackling of thorns under a pot, so is the laughter of the fool."
-- Diogenes
I just call 'em as I see 'em, and I've seen way too many.
ReplyDeletePerhaps you call them as you wish for them to appear.
If Masonic conspiracy theorists say that as well, then at least one element of their theory has some validity.
Then you missed the point entirely... that is their theory, not one element of it.
An argument could be made that they ARE (at least) passively complicit. Obviously, the counter-argument would be that once they were made Masons, their "obligations" irrevocably bound them to the craft. After all, there really is no way to honorably undo a solemn oath, and a truly virtuous man would know that.
Not surprisingly, here we part company.
Once a truly wise and virtuous man realized that he was a duped into swearing fealty to a corrupt organization, he would also realize that any solemn obligation he made to it was based on duplicitous circumstances and therefore null and void.
Now if he took a solemn oath to be a part of a corrupt and duplicitous organization, fully knowing from the outset that it was indeed a corrupt and duplicitous organization, your statement would hold water.
Thus:
1. Obligations extracted through duplicity are not binding.
2. Passivity in a knowingly corrupt system is neither virtuous or wise
I don't know that I'd characterize that as an "amendment" to my statement
Your characterization none withstanding, it was an amendment to your statement. Feel free to consult a dictionary.
This I will say, however: I've never met a man who was offered an honor and turned it down, who wasn't an unusually intelligent and virtuous individual.
I'm sorry, but that is nothing more than an uninformed opinion that has no bearing in reality.
What you are implying with that logical fallacy is that anyone who turns down an accolade is somehow more virtuous than anyone who accepts them. You will run from that statement, I know, but, my counter is that uncommonly noble and wise people accept them on a daily basis - inside and outside of masonry. Therefore, it is simply an irrelevant opinion that does not reflect reality. Accordingly, I could learn just as much from people who accept the baubles as well as people who reject them.
BTW - are you a Freemason in the American system, or a member of an another system?
I can not comment on the Royal Order of Scotland because their financial situiation may be the result of thibgs to which we are not privy. I can only say that Masony is going through challenges which will be address and met. The organization reached a point where number of members was more important than quality of members and where the quality of existing membership could not or would not keep up with the times in terms of the needs of its membership or with financial realities. Anyone who takes big picture view of Masonry and truly sees the value in it will recognize that the situation will be remedied but over time. Masony must first weed out the ritualists and those who are living in the past. It must move out of the industrial age (or pre-industrial age) mentality and into the technological age. We have reached a time of upheavel in the world and not just in Masonry. Leaders must look beyond titles and hierarchy and develop leaders who may be at the lower levels so that they will one day be the new leaders. There is much to be done and it gets done from the inside and not from the outside. Even with this the organization survives and isstill able to make donations of many millions of dollars despite the challenges of some parts being a drain. Look at the recent donation by the brothers in Minnesota: http://www.cemeteryspot.com/blog/?p=115 . How can it be that a dying organization still make large donations if it is crumbling. Challenged yes, crumbling no. Please check the CemeterySpot Blog for a Press Release coming this week.
ReplyDelete"Ivx" said:
ReplyDelete"Perhaps you call them as you wish for them to appear."
Just to be sure we're still talking about the same thing, I said: "every Masonic body is really designed to dupe and fleece the masses for the benefit of a 'reigning' leadership class." You replied: "Do you even realize that you are faithfully regurgitating the anti-mason [sic], conspiracy theory party line," to which I in turn replied: "I just call 'em as I see 'em."
Now you're saying I "wish" Masonry appeared designed to dupe and fleece the masses for the benefit of the reigning leadership class.
Why would I wish a thing like that? How would it benefit me, or anyone else, and why would anyone "wish" for something with no potential benefit?
"Ivx" writes:
"Then you missed the point entirely... that is their theory, not one element of it."
Again, let's be sure we're still discussing the same issue. I said: "every Masonic body is really designed to dupe and fleece the masses ...." You replied: "Do you even realize that you are faithfully regurgitating the anti-mason [sic], conspiracy theory party line," to which I in turn replied: "If Masonic conspiracy theorists say that as well, then at least one element of their theory has some validity."
You also said, however: "What's next - accusations that the Poo-Bahs are all members of the Trilateral Commission, Bilderberg Group or the Illuminati," but now you're saying that the "entirety" of Masonic conspiracy theory is that Masonry is designed to dupe and fleeces masses for the benefit of a reigning leadership class.
What about the "Trilateral Commission, Bilderberg Group or the Illuminati," which you specifically mentioned in association with anti-Masonic conspiracy theory. Are you now saying that those elements are completely unrelated? Which is it? Is the whole argument of anti-Masonic conspiracy theory that Masonry is designed to dupe masses for the benefit of a minority, or are there more elements, as you originally suggested?
"Ivx" writes:
"Once a truly wise and virtuous man realized that he was a duped into swearing fealty to a corrupt organization, he would also realize that any solemn obligation he made to it was based on duplicitous circumstances and therefore null and void."
That's your opinion, and you're certainly entitled to it, but it's only one opinion. An alternative opinion was expressed by King Solomon, who wrote in the book of Ecclesiastes:
"When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it, neither say thou before the angel that it was an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice and destroy the work of thine hands. For he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed."
"Ivx" writes:
"Your characterization none [sic] withstanding, it was an amendment to your statement. Feel free to consult a dictionary."
I won't comment on the irony in that suggestion, but in truth, your statement was an "amendment" to mine only in the sense that it was a different statement. If I said: "It sure is cold outside," and you said: "The sky is really pretty," I suppose you could argue that your statement was an amendment of mine. It would only be such, however, in the sense that it's an entirely different statement.
In reply to my statement: "I've never met a man who was offered an honor and turned it down, who wasn't an unusually intelligent and virtuous individual," "Ivx" writes:
"That is nothing more than an uninformed opinion that has no bearing in reality."
Are you claiming that the people I've met are only my "uninformed opinion" (a statement which obviously doesn't make much sense), or are you claiming that my characterization of certain people as "unusually intelligent and virtuous" is an "uninformed opinion?"
If it's the latter, let's explore the "logic" thereof:
Suppose a selection committee offered the renowned physicist and Nobel laureate, Albert Einstein, an honor such as the first Prime Minister's position in modern Israel, but Einstein politely declined (which actually happened). I say the great man exemplified unusual intelligence and virtue, but you claim my characterization is merely an "uninformed opinion," despite the fact that the offer itself was based upon the selection committee's perception of Einstein as a man of unusual virtue and intelligence.
By claiming that my opinion of those who decline honors and accolades is "uninformed," you're inadvertently saying that people who offer such honors and accolades are "uninformed" as well. There's really no way around that; you simply can't call me ignorant without calling the people who attempt to extend honors ignorant too.
"Ivx" writes:
"What you are implying with that logical fallacy is that anyone who turns down an accolade is somehow more virtuous than anyone who accepts them [sic]."
No, that may be your opinion of what I'm implying, but what I'm actually implying is that on average, I believe most people who decline accolades and honors are more virtuous and intelligent than most people who actively seek them, or thoughtlessly accept them. You may agree or disagree as you please, but you're not a very good position to tell ME what I believe, or what opinion I've attempted to express.
"Ivx" writes:
"My counter [argument] is that uncommonly noble and wise people accept [accolades] on a daily basis - inside and outside of masonry."
Basically, then, your "counter-argument" is that "uncommonly noble and wise people never make mistakes or do stupid things." I don't think that's a very effective "counter," but I'll freely admit that's just my opinion.
In order for that to be effective, however, it would need to withstand a test of simple substitution. For example, substitute the phrase "use of illicit narcotics" in your argument, and your statement would be as follows:
"My counter-argument is that uncommonly noble and wise people use illicit narcotics on a daily basis, which therefore invalidates your argument that people who choose not to use illicit drugs and narcotics are noble and/or wise."
If you really that's an effective "counter," then I'm obviously wasting my time in this exchange.
As for my Masonic affiliation, I'm a "life member" of a "regular" American grand lodge, as well as a "life member" of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, Southern Jurisdiction.
What about you?
-- Diogenes
Diogenes,
ReplyDeleteYou're wasting your time arguing with the fundamentalist mind-set.
If you disagree with anything they say they will call you an egotist or an anti-Mason.
Join us over at TracingBoard.com for some honest brotherly debate.
Now you're saying I "wish" Masonry appeared designed to dupe and fleece the masses for the benefit of the reigning leadership class.
ReplyDeleteNo, I am saying that you obviously
have an axe to grind about the inequality that you stated exists in masonry. Therefore, it is convenient for you to view things in that light.
[....] What about the "Trilateral Commission, Bilderberg Group or the Illuminati," which you specifically mentioned in association with anti-Masonic conspiracy theory. Are you now saying that those elements are completely unrelated? [....]
What is the point of this?
You -- like the conspiracy theorists -- believe that there is a masonic elite, not me. Splitting hairs about the depth of the conspiracy is not germane to this discussion.
An alternative opinion was expressed by King Solomon, who wrote in the book of Ecclesiastes [....]
Oh - so an opinion, offered by another human being, somehow trumps my understanding of how God will handle broken obligations?
How about Kol Nidre? How would that be rectified, using the Solomon yardstick?
My obligation is between the GAOTU and myself.
I won't comment on the irony in that suggestion, but in truth, your statement was an "amendment" to mine only in the sense that it was a different statement.
More hair splitting... ok:
a·mend·ment [ É™ méndmÉ™nt ] (plural a·mend·ments)
noun
Definition:
1. alteration to something: a change, correction, or improvement to something
2. change to legal document: an addition or alteration to a motion, bill, or constitution
3. process of altering something: the process of changing, correcting, or improving something
I used it as referenced in item 1: Changing and subsequently improving upon an arrogant statement.
Are you claiming that the people I've met are only my "uninformed opinion" [....]
Exactly.
You are taking a tiny subset of people who you know -- or have heard about -- and applying their behavior (turning down titles/accolades) as some sort of gold standard when it comes to wisdom and virtue. In addition, you posited that I may learn something from them that I could not learn elsewhere; inferring that there is nothing to be learned from similarly virtuous and wise men who accept titles an baubles.
If I am wrong, please feel free to straighten me out.
No, that may be your opinion of what I'm implying, [....]
Well isn't that what you were implying when you wrote those blanket statements? If it wasn't, then please explain in a nice concise way what you were trying to communicate and spare me the long-winded tap dancing routine.
Basically, then, your "counter-argument" is that "uncommonly noble and wise people never make mistakes or do stupid things."
You obviously did not read what I wrote or you are being disingenuous.
My point was that the acceptance of accolades does not make a man any less virtuous or wise; that there is plenty to be learned from those who have received accolades as well as from those who have never been nominated for them.
It has nothing at all to do with making mistakes or stupidity. How you gleaned that is beyond me.
As for my Masonic affiliation, I'm a "life member" of a "regular" American grand lodge, as well as a "life member" of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, Southern Jurisdiction.
What?!?!?!?!
You have nothing but disdain for appendant bodies, yet you belong to one?
Why on earth would you remain in a system that you find so corrupt and evil? You could demit from the AASR tomorrow without breaking any obligations whatsoever.
Seriously, I was expecting you to be a strict Blue Lodge purist or a member of another Masonic obedience.
Honestly, how do you rectify this? You ride in on your high horse, painting a multitude of brothers with a broad brush, yet you drink the kool-ade and support the evil, power tripping organizations.
I'm sorry, but that sort of behavior is a million miles away from virtuous.
Really - where do you get off giving advice on virtuous behavior?
What about you?
American Grand Lodge, AASR - NMJ and a State Lodge of Research (all yearly).
The funny part is that I have been seriously contemplating demitting from both the AASR and the LOR for various reasons - none of which have anything to do with your outrageous assertions.
You're wasting your time arguing with the fundamentalist mind-set.
ReplyDeleteWow - straight to ad hominem.
Obviously all of the degree and inner work in your multitude of "New and Improved" masonic organizations have served you well.
The beautiful thing, Jeff, is that I am more of a progressive then you will ever know. The difference is that I accept Freemasonry for what it is and check my ego at the door. I am not involved in the politics or the pettiness that demand a "my way or highway" policy.
In fact, I have heard some refer to Masonry as "My Freemasonry". That is not my take on it. I believe otherwise; It is not mine for I am just another brother passing through. If I am worthy enough, I may have made a difference in a brothers life or applied the principles and made a difference outside of the community.
If you disagree with anything they say they will call you an egotist or an anti-Mason.
I will never disagree with reality. I will, however, disagree vehemently with fabrications, exaggerations or generalizations.
Join us over at TracingBoard.com for some honest brotherly debate.
Honesty is not a location, it is a mode of behavior. If you feel the need to enclose it in a controlled environment, then maybe you need to ponder if you ever possessed it.
"The difference is that I accept Freemasonry for what it is and check my ego at the door." - lvx
ReplyDeleteYou may want to check it again. I think it escaped while you weren't looking.
I'm glad you accept it. It's all yours to keep and cherish forever.
You may want to check it again. I think it escaped while you weren't looking.
ReplyDeleteI can see that the lessons of the Middle Chamber weren't lost on you.
Awesome response - honest.
I'm glad you accept it. It's all yours to keep and cherish forever.
That's the difference between us. I could leave it tomorrow and you will probably spend the rest of your days trying to recreate it.
I want you to know something -- in all honesty -- I seriously looked at the RRCG as well as the GOUSA. To me there was something very appealing about systems that wanted to stretch beyond what was available and -- on the surface anyway -- seemingly matched my desire for additional light. Do you want to know what the major stumbling block was?
You.
You see, I could not understand why someone, who had apparently found the perfect organization, would expend so much effort tearing down the organization he left behind. For me it's like politics; I am not going to follow the guy who constantly tells me how much the other guy sucks. I am going to follow the guy who shows me what good he can accomplish.
Due to this negativity, I did not believe in your vision; therefore, I could not be a part of your organizations.
Really dude - I hope that you finally find whatever it is that you are looking for. Perhaps once you do, you won't feel the need to continually slag a system that you feel is beneath you.
American freemasonry is nothing more than a 510c10
ReplyDeletefederally recognized non profit fraternal order
nothing more nothing less.
we are all volunteers with funny titles and hats and chains.
the freemasonry of lore would never be federally regulated..
so spin away volunteers,
check your grand lodges status as well as your lodges..
501c10 is not the freemasonry of lore fella's
you stole another groups identity for pleasure..
have fun
"Ivx" writes:
ReplyDelete"My point was that the acceptance of accolades does not make a man any less virtuous or wise."
Here we go again, back to that deal about poodles and dogs......
I've never implied that people who accept honors and accolades are less virtuous or wise; I've simply stated that in my opinion and observation, people who decline accolades and honors are often unusually virtuous and intelligent.
If you can understand that all poodles are dogs, but not all dogs are poodles, why are you having (or feigning) such a hard time understanding that most people who decline honors and accolades are unusually intelligent and virtuous, but not all people who accept accolades and honors are deficient in those qualities?
One is not exclusive of the other, at least not in my opinion, and I fail to understand why you continue insisting my opinion is something it isn't.
"Ivx" writes:
"You have nothing but disdain for appendant bodies, yet you belong to one? Why on earth would you remain in a system that you find so corrupt and evil? You could demit [sic] from the AASR tomorrow without breaking any obligations whatsoever. Seriously, I was expecting you to be a strict Blue Lodge purist or a member of another Masonic obedience. Honestly, how do you rectify this? You ride in on your high horse, painting a multitude of brothers with a broad brush, yet you drink the kool-ade [sic] and support the evil, power tripping organizations."
I've never said that I have disdain for appendant bodies, and in fact, I joined a number of others before I finally figured out there really wasn't any more light to be had. The "disdain" I expressed was for "invitation-only" groups, such as the ones mentioned above. The Scottish Rite is NOT an "invitation-only" group; any Master Mason can join it simply by applying and paying the initiation and membership fees.
I joined the Scottish Rite immediately after I became a Master Mason, and paid my lifetime dues before I realized it wasn't what I'd been told. I wouldn't be able to say that unless I'd actually seen it for myself, but I have. I no longer attend reunions, monthly meetings, feasts, or any other events, and I don't "support" the rite in any way. What purpose would therefore be accomplished for me to "dimit?" They won't refund my money, and I'd just lose a magazine subscription, which if nothing else, keeps me informed about the newest suckers to follow in my footsteps.
"Ivx" writes:
"I'm sorry, but that sort of behavior is a million miles away from virtuous. Really - where do you get off giving advice on virtuous behavior?"
I seldom (if ever) offer "advice" of any kind, but how "virtuous" would you say I'd be if I criticized an organization I knew nothing about, and how could I truly learn about "mainstream" Masonry without experiencing it?
You would have criticized me if I hadn't been a member, but instead, you criticize me because I am. There's little logic in that, and it appears as though you just want to argue, automatically taking the opposite position of anything I say.
Let's try this: generally speaking, I'm opposed to homicide, rape, fraud, the use of illicit drugs, and most other crimes and torts. Why don't you now try to argue that all of those things are "good," and that I have no right to express an opinion to the contrary? That's basically what you've been doing with your various arguments above.
"Ivx" writes:
"I have been seriously contemplating demitting [sic] from both the AASR and the LOR for various reasons ... I could leave [the Masonic fraternity] tomorrow ..."
For all practical purposes, I left it a long time ago. I haven't been to a lodge of any kind in a few years, and will almost certainly never go again. If I hadn't paid my "perpetual dues" at a time when I thought the organization was more than it is, I'd let my membership(s) lapse, but Masonic bodies realize that many people would do the same thing, given the opportunity, so they make it a policy never to refund any portion of "perpetual" dues.
"Ivx" writes:
"I seriously looked at the RRCG as well as the GOUSA. To me there was something very appealing about systems that wanted to stretch beyond what was available and -- on the surface anyway -- seemingly matched my desire for additional light."
After I realized (albeit slowly) that "traditional Masonry" in the US today is basically a worthless waste of time and money, I abandoned all thought about it until I recently began learning about some of the new "alternative" lodges. The ideas they express seem very appealing, but so did the lip-service of traditional lodges, and it's impossible for me to ignore the old adage: "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."
In the end, you can say what you like about me, but you can't say I haven't experienced "mainstream" Masonry for myself. If your experiences have been different, I'm very happy for you, but I doubt that's the case, or you wouldn't have been considering joining "alternative" lodges, as you claim you have.
I suspect the greater truth is that you, too, have discovered that "mainstream" Masonry in the US today is like a beautifully wrapped box, with nothing inside, while those who insist otherwise, personify the behavior of the "emperor" in the tale of "The Emperor's New Clothes."
-- Diogenes
"You see, I could not understand why someone, who had apparently found the perfect organization, would expend so much effort tearing down the organization he left behind." - LVX
ReplyDeleteThe GOUSA is not the perfect organization. It is an organization that seeks after perfection.
I have never sought to tear down anything, but to point-out the serious moral issues facing mainstream Freemasonry. I simply saw many wrongs and tried to right them.
Why?
Because we, as Masons, claim to be both moral and honorable. It is disingenuous to say one thing and do another. I could not remain a part of something that forced me to turn a blind eye to its immoral practices.
I'm sorry that you blame me for your decisions but, at the end of the day every man must do what he thinks is right for himself. I, of my own volition, choose a path less trodden and am willing to follow it to its ultimate destination.
I've never implied that people who accept honors and accolades are less virtuous or wise; I've simply stated that in my opinion and observation, people who decline accolades and honors are often unusually virtuous and intelligent.
ReplyDelete... which you then qualified with: "They know things you probably don't, and perhaps never will."
Which suggests there they are in possession of special knowledge due to the fact that they turned down the accolades and baubles.
Please, don't be intellectually dishonest; you were placing that subset of people above the "frauds" and "degree chasers" who accept them. All I am saying is that it is folly to even compare them. All groups have their merits and all are capable of imparting something of value.
I've never said that I have disdain for appendant bodies
Well, actually, you did (emphasis is mine):
"[....] my eyes were finally opened, and I realized that every Masonic body is really designed to dupe and fleece the masses for the benefit of a "reigning" leadership class."
Do we now have to consult the dictionary for the meaning of "every"?
[....] I don't "support" the rite in any way. What purpose would therefore be accomplished for me to "dimit?" They won't refund my money [....]
So it's about the money? Nice.
You would be sending them a message. You would have the courage of your convictions. You would not be a hypocrite.
[....] I'd just lose a magazine subscription which if nothing else, keeps me informed about the newest suckers to follow in my footsteps.
Now that right there is the money shot. Really dude... take a bow.
You have blathered on endlessly about humble people with uncommon virtue and wisdom -- as if you are on some kind of inside track -- then, you actually have the audacity to write those words? With that attitude it is apparent that you have not met any of the humble enlightened, let alone learned anything from them.
You would have criticized me if I hadn't been a member
Actually, I would not. If you were a Blue lodge guy, I would have simply said that I understand why you have not left American Masonry due to your interpretation of your obligations. The fact that you are a member of the AASR blew me away - I never saw that one coming.
it appears as though you just want to argue, automatically taking the opposite position of anything I say.
That is a cop out, and you know it.
The reality is that you recognized that the position you took was indefensible considering your withering contempt for an organization that you are a life member of. You can't have it both ways - it reflects poorly upon you as a brother or a man of honor.
For all practical purposes, I left it a long time ago. I haven't been to a lodge of any kind in a few years, and will almost certainly never go again.
So leave it if you don't believe in it or try to find something within it that makes it worthwhile to you, but please don't bury your head in the sand or rip it to shreds as a "life member" - that is so cowardly.
If your experiences have been different, I'm very happy for you, but I doubt that's the case, or you wouldn't have been considering joining "alternative" lodges, as you claim you have.
My experiences have been very positive. What I did not find was the depth of education and esoteric involvement that I somehow thought would be obvious. As time progressed, I realized that it was there all along - I was just looking at it the wrong way. Additionally, as I stated before, I get my esoteric fix outside of masonry and through that, I finally recognized the beauty of the masonic system.
I suspect the greater truth is that you, too, have discovered that "mainstream" Masonry in the US today is like a beautifully wrapped box, with nothing inside, while those who insist otherwise, personify the behavior of the "emperor" in the tale of "The Emperor's New Clothes."
Actually, what I have discovered was that my reasons for joining were selfish and flawed. I was looking to see what I could gain from it spiritually. Once I stepped away from that and resigned my self to physically supporting a lodge with elderly, social club masons, I discovered what humility and service is all about. It was exactly what I needed to balance a life that was bordering on spiritual narcissism.
So yes, I have yet to meet a guru, though I have met some very interesting people who have taught me many things. In addition, I am able to now see what the system entails. That is why I occasionally consider leaving the AASR and LOR - there is a treasure trove in the Blue Lodge and sometimes I just want to focus all of my energies on that.
I have never sought to tear down anything, but to point-out the serious moral issues facing mainstream Freemasonry. I simply saw many wrongs and tried to right them.
ReplyDeleteWell, just out of curiosity, what are you gaining by continuing to harp on them? When you are making snide remarks or celebrating each new revelation that stupid people do stupid things, would that also fall under righting wrongs?
At what point does whistle blowing turn into applause?
I'm sorry that you blame me for your decisions but, at the end of the day every man must do what he thinks is right for himself.
Please don't give yourself that much importance - I don't blame you for my decisions. Your negative attitude was merely one part of the investigation process. In fact, I am incredibly grateful that I witnessed things that made me question what your organizations are about.
Like you, I chose my own path.
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ReplyDelete"Well, just out of curiosity, what are you gaining by continuing to harp on them? When you are making snide remarks or celebrating each new revelation that stupid people do stupid things, would that also fall under righting wrongs?" - LVX
ReplyDeleteYou've been arguing with Diogenes, not me. Diogenes is not a member of the Grand Orient, he is a mainstream Mason.
I do, however, believe that every Mason has a right to know what's going on, or else how can they be expected to make sound moral judgments? If the Jesters, Shrine and GL's were simply allowed to continue to cover thing up like they have for years, then everyone would be in the dark. Are you afraid of a little Light?
Lately, I've lost all interest in the Anglo-American Masonry. I've been too busy with my lodge to even read about what's going on.
I'm just glad I don't have to deal with any of that anymore.
You've been arguing with Diogenes, not me. Diogenes is not a member of the Grand Orient, he is a mainstream Mason.
ReplyDeleteNo - that question was directed at you, not Diogenes. You've had plenty to say:
When they have a successful lodge like Halcyon they do everything they can to destroy it.
Maybe it's some kind of institutional insanity?
Yep, mainstream Freemasonry keeps dying - I can understand why you're cryin'.
Actually... it's kiiling itself... not sure if that qualifies for dying. Perhaps "institutional suicide" is a better term.
Is mainstream Freemasonry corrupt? Yes, there are without a doubt some major issues. This does not mean, however, that all mainstream Freemasons are corrupt.
I think there's a growing amount of white collar crime in mainstream Freemasonry along with prostitution and other issues.
There are also issues of social injustices and un-Masonic conduct that go uncorrected.
These invitation groups are pretty much Poo-Bah clubs that offer little in terms of enlightenment.
You're wasting your time arguing with the fundamentalist mind-set.
If you disagree with anything they say they will call you an egotist or an anti-Mason.
Join us over at TracingBoard.com for some honest brotherly debate.
I'm glad you accept it. It's all yours to keep and cherish forever.
... and that was in this thread alone.
I do, however, believe that every Mason has a right to know what's going on, or else how can they be expected to make sound moral judgments?
I agree that Mason's have a right to know what's going on. The sound moral judgments come from within, not without.
However, there is a huge difference between discussing problems and cheerleading for disaster.
If the Jesters, Shrine and GL's were simply allowed to continue to cover thing up like they have for years, then everyone would be in the dark.
I agree - their misdeeds should come to light. But not all Grand Lodges seem to have the same problems. They are not all corrupt as you would lead people to believe.
In fact, here's a challenge: Compile a list of truly grievous offenses committed by Grand Lodges in the last year. See if you can mange to tie one corrupt practice to each lodge in the USA.
Are you afraid of a little Light?
I welcome it. I also welcome using this medium as a galvanizing force, not as a mud slinging festival.
Lately, I've lost all interest in the Anglo-American Masonry. I've been too busy with my lodge to even read about what's going on.
Then why comment negatively about the affairs of Anglo-American Masonry?
I'm just glad I don't have to deal with any of that anymore.
Great - now walk the walk so I don't have to deal with your commentary of the evils of Anglo-American Masonry anymore.
You want to tell me about things that you have discovered in your lodge or on your journey, even better. Esoteric truths that we are missing on this side of the divide, lay it on me.
Be a true ambassador for your obedience.
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ReplyDeleteI'm not an ambassador for anything. I simply say what I believe without regard for political correctness.
ReplyDeleteI joined Freemasonry because it claimed to provide enlightenment (Light), but all I found was a bunch of paranoid power grasping old men. They had created so many rules that research and enlightenment was impossible.
If a mainstream Mason is curious about the Rite of Strict Observance, or Mizraim or the Rectified Rite then he has reached a boundary. All he can hope to do is read about these Masonic bodies.
Instead of promoting enlightenment and learning the mainstream Grand Lodges try to stifle it. This is evil in my opinion. It is evil of any organization to attempt to limit what their members can learn and experience. These limitations are the foundations upon which every cult is built.
If mainstream Freemasonry is as great as it claims then why does it need to protect its members from exploring the rest of the Masonic world?
I owe it to myself to become knowledgeable and informed. My obligation to MSM said that nothing in it would in any way interfere with what I owed to God, my self, etc., but in fact it DID interfere. It built a giant wall around me that forced me to work and learn within a small circle of the total reality.
MS Masons live in fear of their Grand Lodges when their Grand Lodges should live in fear of them. No Mason should ever have to fear expanding his Masonic knowledge, nor should he have to fear meeting with other Masons if he so chooses. This is all about control and NOT Freemasonry.
Now, if you like being controlled and restricted, then MS Masonry is for you. I don't like it and I want nothing to do with any of the immoral activities taking place in MS Masonry.
If having the freedom to learn and seek further enlightenment means that I have to build a new lodge under a different Masonic system, then so be it. I'm tired of the silly Masonic games MS Masons play. Just the other day I read that the GL of KY is trying to expel a brother in Iraq for visiting a Prince Hall Lodge. This is childish nonsense. I don't have any more time for such child-like stupidity. It's like children fighting in a sandbox.
"Ivx" writes:
ReplyDelete"Please, don't be intellectually dishonest; you were placing that subset of people above the 'frauds' and 'degree chasers' who accept them."
I do place those people above "frauds" and "degree-chasers," but your train of thought goes off track in assuming I believe that ALL people who accept accolades and honors are "frauds" and "degree chasers."
Undoubtedly, "frauds" and "degree-chasers" comprise a subset of those who accept accolades and honors, but I've never said or implied that ALL people who accept accolades and honors are "frauds" and/or "degree chasers." If there's any "intellectual dishonesty" here, it's in repeatedly trying to claim I said something I didn't.
"Ivx" writes:
"'I've never said that I have disdain for appendant bodies.' Well, actually, you did: 'my eyes were finally opened, and I realized that every Masonic body is really designed to dupe and fleece the masses for the benefit of a 'reigning' leadership class.' Do we now have to consult the dictionary for the meaning of 'every?'"
Perhaps you should consult a dictionary, because the word "every" does not impart singular emphasis on any one thing, including "appendant bodies," which was your accusation.
As for my statement, perhaps you should also consult a dictionary to learn the difference between "disdain," which involves a moral judgment, and "observation," which does not.
If I said: "I saw O. J. Simpson running from the law in his white Bronco," you might claim that's a statement of "disdain;" it isn't, however, it's just an observation. I didn't express disdain for O. J. or his actions, I only stated what I saw.
Likewise, when I said: "every Masonic body is really designed to dupe and fleece the masses for the benefit of a 'reigning' leadership class," it's just an observation. If you think running from the law or duping people are "disdainful" acts, that's your moral judgment. Perhaps I agree, but I only stated what I observed, not my opinion of it.
I suppose I could have said: "I saw O. J. Simpson driving his white Bronco in front of a large police convoy, which appeared to be (and were later confirmed to be) trying to arrest him." Likewise, I suppose I could have said: "All Masonic bodies are organized to extract money from the majority of members, with little or no tangible benefit in return, and deliver that money for the specific and often personal use of those in high leadership positions."
Would that "amendment" make you happier? If so, then consider it done.
"Ivx" writes:
"[If you renounced your membership in the AASR,] You would be sending them a message."
What exactly would that message be? "I gave you a bunch of money, and now I want you to keep it without any further obligation?"
Personally, I think the AASR would like that. I think they wish every Mason would pay them a lifetime membership fee, then let them off the hook without even the most minute return on investment.
If they'd refund a fair prorated portion of my dues, I'd "dimit" tomorrow, but short of that, the "message" I'm going to continue sending is repeated at least two or three times annually, when they mail me requests for donations. Those requests provide repeated opportunities to send a message, and I do so every time by not sending them a cent.
"Ivx" writes:
"The reality is that you recognized that the position you took was indefensible considering your withering contempt for an organization that you are a life member of. You can't have it both ways - it reflects poorly upon you as a brother or a man of honor."
I can't change what I did in the past. I was a sucker and paid my lifetime dues before I realized what the organization was all about, and there's no way of changing that. I wouldn't be stupid enough to do it again, and I'm not stupid enough to effectively donate even more by relieving them of all reciprocal obligations.
If you think that's wrong, then I'll tell you what: you send me a bunch of money, and I'll provide you little (if anything) of tangible value in return. Then, you can express to me your dissatisfaction by telling me to keep the money without any further obligation.
Does that sound equitable to you?
"Ivx" writes:
"What I have discovered was that my reasons for joining [Masonry] were selfish and flawed. I was looking to see what I could gain from it spiritually. Once I stepped away from that and resigned my self to physically supporting a lodge with elderly, social club masons, I discovered what humility and service is all about. It was exactly what I needed to balance a life that was bordering on spiritual narcissism."
You could discover a lot broader world of humility and service if you'd volunteer at your local hospital, senior citizens' center, and/or homeless shelter. There, you could serve all sorts of people, young, old, male, female, black, white, etc., not just elderly white men who happen to be members of a particular club. I can assure you, the Masonic fraternity doesn't have a monopoly on people who are worthy of other peoples' time and effort.
I don't believe I've been impolite or ungenerous to you in any of my notes above, but if you think I have, I sincerely apologize. That said, I really don't appreciate your insults and personal attacks.
I've asked questions you've chosen to ignore, and I've expressed some opinions that apparently conflict with yours, but in every instance I've attempted to refrain from impugning your personal character and integrity, and I think it proper that you should likewise refrain from attempting to impugn mine.
Anything less might seem "ungentlemanly," and will most assuredly induce no further replies from me.
-- Diogenes
What exactly would that message be? "I gave you a bunch of money, and now I want you to keep it without any further obligation?"
ReplyDeleteNo - the message would be that they, in your estimation, failed you miserably.
We have literally expended hundreds of words between us. You obviously do not have a problem with putting your thoughts into print. Why not let them know exactly why you feel the way you do?
I'd "dimit" tomorrow, but short of that, the "message" I'm going to continue sending is repeated at least two or three times annually, when they mail me requests for donations. Those requests provide repeated opportunities to send a message, and I do so every time by not sending them a cent.
OK- so that is three reminders per year that you joined an organization that you want to have no part of. An additional reminder for every magazine, communication... etc.
Is it worth it?
Look - I am not trying to be a jerk, but you are not sending any message by ignoring them. I am a lifetime member of the VFW, and I routinely ignore all additional requests for money, insurance... etc. They barely know that I even exist.
My point is that the AASR is not getting the message that you think are sending. To them, you are sending the same message that probably 50% of their membership sends, which is "I am not giving you money for any number of reasons". I would be amazed if they thought that it was a protest move, let alone being aware that you exist.
You want to make a point; don't send money - send a letter in the envelope detailing exactly how you feel. If they got that a few times a year, it would probably grab their attention.
You could discover a lot broader world of humility and service if you'd volunteer at your local hospital, senior citizens' center, and/or homeless shelter. There, you could serve all sorts of people, young, old, male, female, black, white, etc., not just elderly white men who happen to be members of a particular club. I can assure you, the Masonic fraternity doesn't have a monopoly on people who are worthy of other peoples' time and effort.
No it doesn't. So I guess that it's a good thing that I am involved in a host of other charities as well, some of which service people other than "old white men". If you want me to list them for you, I will, although I would prefer not.
Of the other service work, I can walk away from it after so many hours. People rotate through. I can compartmentalize it and let any number of other people handle things if I do not feel up to it.
That is not the case here. There is a more personal element attached to it. There is a binding emotional commitment. It is a very different experience altogether.
As for the "old white men"...
These "old white men" -- which they are as I live in the whitest state in the nation -- are not red necks, wannabe politico's, fast trackers or any of the stereotypes that you have in mind.
These guys are retired farmers (if that is possible), mechanics, tradesmen and laborers. To them Freemasonry was something that either their fathers/uncles did or that their friends did. They joined when the ranks were huge. They watched people come and go. They stayed.
Although they have never cracked any other book than the floor work and the monitor, you can see that masonry worked it magic. They are among the most loyal, decent and humble people that I have met.
I've asked questions you've chosen to ignore, and I've expressed some opinions that apparently conflict with yours, but in every instance I've attempted to refrain from impugning your personal character and integrity, and I think it proper that you should likewise refrain from attempting to impugn mine.
To the best of knowledge, I have answered every question that you have sent my way. If there is something that I haven't, then please let me know.
All I am saying is that if you do not believe in masonry, then, for your own mental health, you should leave it. There are a million places where light is readily available - should that be what you are looking for. There are other obediences that you could look into as well.
I am saying this as politely as I can: You are shortchanging yourself on a multitude of levels by staying in a system that you don't respect. Either give another chance and try to affect change or give it the old heave-ho, but don't sit there and blast it for the sake of blasting it.
LVX,
ReplyDeleteSo... you advise anyone who sees the problems that exist to just leave? I guess that would be easier for you and the others who delude themselves into believing that everything is just perfect in American Freemasonry.
When brothers stand-up for justice and morality you whine. That's why the sickness keeps spreading in American Freemasonry.
So... you advise anyone who sees the problems that exist to just leave?
ReplyDeleteReally? Is that what I am saying? Let's go back to the tape:
"All I am saying is that if you do not believe in masonry, then, for your own mental health, you should leave it. [....] There are other obediences that you could look into as well."
Now - isn't that what you say? That masonry is corrupt and you don't trust anyone in that system? That the GOUSA or GWU are the only true obediences?
Why would you object to me pointing a brother to the "only honorable system" in your esteemed estimation?
Then of course I said this, which obviously escaped your square and noble eye:
Either give another chance and try to affect change or give it the old heave-ho
When brothers stand-up for justice and morality you whine. That's why the sickness keeps spreading in American Freemasonry.
Wait - did you not read anything that I posted? Read the bold again.
Howard - the only sickness I see spreading is your interpretation of what Freemasonry is supposed to be. You might not want to hear that, but it's true.
I do not wish to have this conversation with you in this thread. If you want to continue it, then copy and paste it over to the corral and we can continue there.