First, it was black descendants of American slaves, wanting reparations from the U.S. and state governments. Now, it's a group of so-called Knights Templar trying to shake down the Vatican for untold treasures in repayment for 700-year old memories of medieval torture.
Next, it will be me trying to get back the lunch money that bully in the sixth grade stole from me.
At least they're trying to shake down a group — the Catholic Church — that has loot to spare.
The Register says:
The Daily Telegraph reports that The Association of the Sovereign Order of the Temple of Christ has launched a court case in Spain, demanding Pope Benedict “recognise” the seizure of assets worth €100bn.Masons | Knights Templar | Vatican | Freemasonry | Catholic Church | Burning Taper | BurningTaper.com
The Spanish-based group of Templars apparently says in a statement: "We are not trying to cause the economic collapse of the Roman Catholic Church, but to illustrate to the court the magnitude of the plot against our Order."
This might come as a surprise to those who believe that the order of warrior monks — also credited with possessing the Holy Grail and laying the foundation of the European banking system — was smashed in 1307 by Pope Clement V and Philip IV of France.
This is interesting, although not so much as the lawsuit against Halcyon Lodge:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.novusordosaeculorum.com/showthread.php?p=47924
Apparently, Halcyon Lodge chose not to air their "dirty laundry" on their website, as the Burning Taper likewise has not. Wonder why, when the complaint that WS couldn't post the lodge's dirty laundry on the lodge site he belongs to. Certainly, this court case is pertinent news.
My Name Is Still Nobody.
ReplyDeleteHow much progress did you make building the temple today?
S&F,
BC
Magus, I like your style!
ReplyDeleteHow many have you built today? I'm assuming none. NOBODY built a temple in the Halcyon situation. Now the courts can decide if one was stolen or not. That was clear to happen from the start.
ReplyDeleteIf I had a rusty old truck in my back yard and someone towed it off and fixed it up to donaate to a worthy cause, where they right to steal it because I wasn't doing anything with it yet? No. It's theft. Plain and simple. The analogy may play out, I don't know.
Don't you want people to know the facts of the case, or do you assume the facts don't put a good light on the Halcyon members? Some are listed in the court case-so much for the G.O. of U.S. protecting the identity of their members.
It doesn't matter if Halcyon or GL Ohio wins, the facts will be known. Hopefully, justice will be served. If it goes to Halcyon's favor, it will make them look great.
It's weird you thought it important to comment now, when you obviously didn't feel it important to speak up before. Two things are facts here right now; the newsworthyness of the story and the fact that the case is going to court. Until you have facts rather than snide comments to offer, I suggest you sit down and let the events play out. Whatever the outcome, I will report it here and elsewhere if W.S. does not.
Great random quote at the top of the B.T. today:
ReplyDelete"Any fact facing us is not as important as our attitude toward it, for that determines our success or failure. The way you think about a fact may defeat you before you ever do anything about it. You are overcome by the fact because you think you are. — Brother Norman Vincent Peale"
I have this theory...
ReplyDeleteIt goes back to Umberto Eco, then to Michael Baigent, and then Dan Brown, and another couple of dozen authors over the last 20 years.
The Templars have been secretly authoring books about the Templars in order to increase public awareness of themselves. Now that we all know the Templars and bit of their history and the connection with the Grail and all that, they feel safe to come out of hiding to ask for reparations.
It's a fantastic PR coup!
Pretty sound theory you've got there, Tom. It would be interesting if the plaintiffs provided irrefutable proof of a direct connection to those poor, tortured Soldiers of Christ.
ReplyDeleteif someone came into your backyard and stole something, yes that is wrong.
ReplyDeletebut when Halcyon caught others trying to steal their "truck" without their permission, the men of halcyon did what they had to do to protect their possession from others who had no claim.
no theft at all......the Grand Lodge of Ohio made Halcyon the 100% owner of the truck....
the truck owners wanted to see the rtuck survive into the future and "gifted" the shares in the compnay that owned the truck to a legit , local charity..........
pretty simple actually...
Halcyon wanted to go to courts years ago about this situation, but were told they could not, but that was the first things Grand Lodge did when they did not get to steal the truck for themselves....
perception and knowledge can do wonders..........
Thanks for thinking about us though,
The main question is how much of the crafts funds have the Grand Lodge of Ohio already spent on this?
+$100,000.00 I am sure!
What a logical use of funds...
unchecked and unmonitored as usual!
speaking of building Temples, it was a for profit corporation that built the Halcyon Temple, raising money through selling stock, the grand lodge of ohio never owned 1 share nor invested 1 dollar into the construction of maintenance of the building, nor ever paid any of its taxes.
Nothing was stolen...
the rightful owners did what was best for the preservation of an historical building in an historical district. Protecting the history of the community and the facility.
We should be going infront of the system here soon, so any real discussions is speculation until the mediation in sept.
So, my name is still nobody, any other questions about halcyon, you can go to my blog and we can discuss it more there, or here where more people can read it.
Again, thanks for caring and keeping the story alive.....
"but when Halcyon caught others trying to steal their "truck" without their permission, the men of halcyon did what they had to do to protect their possession from others who had no claim."
ReplyDeleteJust because others had no claim does not equate to Halcyon and the G.O. having a claim. I can go to your blog and discuss it there, and I thank you for the invitation, but since we have seen you have been entirely resistant to offer information in the past (just as your unsupported assertions here offer NO substantive information) I think I'll wait for the results of the trial and SEE whether or not Halcyon was in the wrong, well-intentioned or not. I'm willlng to wait for FACTS now, not unsupported assertions. IF the GL of Ohio is in the wrong, they will have to answer. The Halcyon defendants listed in the court document will likewise have to answer. The story is alive, but I will not thank you, as you have been historically uncooperative in offering facts, and continue to do so here.
Here is a quiz for you, Tubal, that you can answer easily. Answer 'yes' or 'no', and do not skirt the issue and make non-statements without evidence as you just did and often do. If you fail to answer 'yes' or 'no', or fail to answer at all, you leave no alternative but to have a 'yes' answer assumed.
ReplyDelete1.) Did Halcyon lodge, before breaking with the GL of Ohio, allow Jeff Peace to sit in a tiled lodge meeting?
YES or NO
2.) Did Halcyon Lodge discuss lodge business outside of a tiled lodge meeting?
YES or NO
3.) Did you sneak individuals into a tiled lodge meeting who did not belong according to the laws, rules, or regulations of the specific lodge?
YES or NO
I'm not expecting you to give a straight answer, but here's your chance. Just because you feel justified doesn't mean you were just. That goes for Halcyon and/or the Ohio GL. Now we'll know for sure, and the information will be clear and not muddied as you have always offered.
"The main question is how much of the crafts funds have the Grand Lodge of Ohio already spent on this?
ReplyDelete+$100,000.00 I am sure!
What a logical use of funds..."
There is no price too great to see justice served. IF Halcyon wins, then you should be thanking the GL of Ohio. As to 'what's been spent', the closest estimate is $273, as is a matter of public record:
"Case Cost Detail
Account Amount
CLERK'S FEES $224.76
COMPUTER FEES $10.00
LEGAL AID $25.74
LEGAL NEWS $10.00
LEGAL RESEARCH - CIVIL $3.00
TOTAL COST $273.50"
Those are court fees for filing motons and other court related items.
ReplyDeleteThe does not reflect the actual monies spent on attorney fees.
"Lonewolf with Golden Tears said...
ReplyDeleteThose are court fees for filing motons and other court related items.
The does not reflect the actual monies spent on attorney fees."
Still, it's the best information available as to the costs. Why assume more if you don't know? It's a fact, and the $100k is an assumtion on 2-many-Bowl's part.
1.) Did Halcyon lodge, before breaking with the GL of Ohio, allow Jeff Peace to sit in a tiled lodge meeting?
ReplyDeleteNO
2.) Did Halcyon Lodge discuss lodge business outside of a tiled lodge meeting?
NO
3.) Did you sneak individuals into a tiled lodge meeting who did not belong according to the laws, rules, or regulations of the specific lodge?
NO
Any other questions?
Also, when you ask about "discussing" Lodge business outside a tyled Lodge room, do you mean officers and brethren having discussions about the direction of the Lodge or other business pertaining to the Lodge, like in the basement of the temple, or at a tavern after a meeting, all amongst brethren?
I am not sure what you are ultimately looking for with that question, but beine a past member of more than one Lodge, my other Lodge, rocky river 703 discussed business at the bar quite often, so I do not understand why that question was asked, but if you clarify what the question is about, I may be able to expound on it.
Cool.
HOW ABOUT THE 25K RETAINER FEE.
ReplyDeleteIF YOU GO OVER YOUR RETAINER YOU HAVE TO RE ANTE.
SO I AM CONFIDENT THAT THE BILL IS MORE THAN A COUPLE HUNDRED DOLLARS.
NOT TO MENTION THEY HAVE RETAINED ONE OF THE MOST EXPENSIVE LAW FIRMS IN THE CITY.
I HIGHLY DOUBT THAT A FEW HUNDRED DOLLARS IS ABLE TO COVER THAT COST BY A LONG SHOT.
DON'T THINK FOR A MINUTE THAT THE BIG FIRM IS'NT MILKING THE CASH COW
ALL FOR WHAT?
i am sorry again,
ReplyDeleteI did not know the FACTS about the Temple Company and Halcyons ownership were not facts.
I have a letter from written by WB Bob Andrews to RWB Goebel TELLING him Halcyon is not interested in selling the building and would you(RWB Geobel) get involved in stopping mike hogan and mike ciccerretti, temple board dupes, from trying to illegally sell the facility dated back in 2004?
I have no need to make stuff up, the Halcyon situation goes back years before a jeff peace was ever known about.
It was so F-ed up in that building that mike hogan knocked norm murasco to the Lodge room floor and did not get in trouble for it.
physically knocked him to the floor!
That was the type of control they(hogan,cicerretti,pack,holt,childers,etc.) had over that building and the DDGM's who were assigned to it.
Any other questions?
ReplyDeleteJust why did you never give a straight answer to these questions before? ask about the meeting because, at least in our area, all decisions affecting the lodge must be done in a tiled lodge. If there were decisions made outside a tiled lodge, that isn't protocol, afaik. Then again, shutting down a lodge without informing the brethren isn't either, so there you go. If the GL of Ohio forced the hand of the WM, to shut down the lodge without consent of the brethren was an additional wrong. Everyone who knows math knows two of them don't make a right.
"i am sorry again,
ReplyDeleteI did not know the FACTS about the Temple Company and Halcyons ownership were not facts."
Apparently, the facts in question are whether or not the G.O. of U.S. lodge that replaced the other Halcyon lodge are the rightful owners of the building. Is the 'new' Halcyon Lodge, closed down without consulting thebrethen, and re-opened under the auspices of an entirely different system, again without consulting the brethren at large, the same lodge?
If the brethren at large were given ample time meet and decide if this was the direction they wished their lodge to go, or even decided to not show up, then at least they would have had that chance to make known their wishes. They were not. IF this 'new' Halcyon Lodge is only the same in name, then there are real questions regarding their right to ownership of something they usurped. Those are the facts that are of concern and are in question.
The 'Halcyon Lodge' in existence today is far distant from the original Halcyon Lodge, and resembles it mostly in name.
If someone was knocked to the floor, the brother knocking the other to the floor should have been brought up on Masonic charges-simple. If he was not (for whatever reason), or charges were not allowed to be filed, is too bad. Was this even attempted? ANY Mason can bring Masonic charges against another brother in his jurisdiction. If they are not allowed to do so, there are other things to do besides closing down a lodge without consulting the brethren at large and giving them NO notice and switching the association from the UGLE to the GODF again, with NO notice until after the fact. How can you say that this is just?
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ReplyDeleteHalcyon Lodge that is operating under the GOUSA owns NOTHING!
ReplyDeleteA legit 501c3 now owns the shares in the for profit company.
The community is benefitting from the facility, not the GOUSA masons.
A mock trial was held by the offenders peers and no charge was made.
we also brought up mike cicerretti on charges, but his cronies over saw that one too.
In Ohio masonry, Justice was blind and thrown down a coal shoot.
Justice is not to be found in Ohio masonry.
They do what they like, when they like, how they like.
those same brethren were not being informed while some scum bags were trying sell it on the sly.....?
Oh, it is ok to sell it without going through the proper channels and notifying the brethren, but it is wrong to set gift its ownership to a legit 501c3 that will have better means of supporting it?
ok.....
there is way too much history to think it is that cut and dry....
This same mason not only knocked norm murasco down, he physically intimidated a DDGM in the middle of his blue lodge room a few years back, no repercussions....
Ohio is a joke when it comes to following the tenets....
but I guess me being from ohio I would not know any better, and I am sure you know otherwise....
better to keep quiet on some things.......
ReplyDeleteattorney client shizzle
"we felt it was better to surrender the charter than break a law?"
ReplyDeleteWithout the consultation of the brethren at large, laws be damned. NOW you will see what laws you may or may not have broken.
"Once we raised the dues to $150.0, the exodus of demitting brethren was in droves. We were the Lodge, the officers and the brethren"
Meaning, you voted to raise the dues to a level that was not in the interests of most of the brethren (thus, the exodus). I'm assuming you sent a letter out one meeting before to inform these 'exodus' Masons that you were planning to raise the dues? I trust also that you told them the amount of the increase? 'Not one dues paying member' is obvious. You drove out the 'dues' paying members by raising their dues.
It might be different in Ohio, but a dues raise must accompany a general letter to the brethren at large.
Once you surrendered your charter, you lost the ability to make claims on a lodge that no longer existed and the properties of said lodge. YOU did not own the property, the lodge did. Since it no longer existed according to its bylaws, you remain Halcyon lodge in name only.
Forget the obligations to your GL, what about your obligations to your brothers? All this said, it is not up to me and it is not up to you. The court will dispense a verdict and hopefully justice. It may be that Halcyon is found to be the unjust one here, at least from a legal standpoint. Again, I feel more comfortable getting the facts from testimony in a court of law than you. You have single-handedly done more damage to Halcyon than the GL of Ohio (who seem silent on the matter for the most part) have done by never giving a straight answer. Now, it's out of your and Halcyon's hands.
"Halcyon Lodge that is operating under the GOUSA owns NOTHING!"
ReplyDeleteDid they ever?
"The community is benefitting from the facility, not the GOUSA masons."
So says you. Where do you meet (when it's legal for you to be in the building?) How do you run the boxing club? Isn't it a benefit that you can run your social programs, or does it mean nothing to you to help out those kids?
"A mock trial was held by the offenders peers and no charge was made."
That's unfortunate, but what solid evidence do you have to support your assertion that it was a 'mock' trial? Even if it were by a jury of his friends, isn't it possible that they ruled with an even hand?
"Justice is not to be found in Ohio masonry."
Perhaps even in the current Halcyon lodge. The courts, if everything goes right, will deliver justice. Halcyon may get justice, it just may not be what they want.
"better to keep quiet on some things.......
ReplyDeleteattorney client shizzle"
I can understand that.
I'm sure that once the court passes down its opinion, W.S. will report it.
ReplyDeleteNow, lets ALL step back and let the legal system work this issue out. Nobody is making any progress by arguing about. Those on the side of the GL are always not going to be convinced to support Halcyon and vice versa.
I completely support debate and discussion amongst brothers, but this is an argument. No one ever wins an argument.
It took me a long time to learn the truth in the saying that "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."
Lets just hold our tongues until this is all sorted out in the arena that matters, a court of law.
Like BC said, lets work on building our own temples for now. All this argument does nothing to further us as men and as masons.
Tony Melton
Euclid Lodge #3, GOUSA
I can honestly say "who cares" about any of this? Really?
ReplyDeleteSome old crypt of a building in a bombed out part of Cleveland Ohio. The GL of Ohio can take it and turn it into another Bingo Hall for all I care.
Is this the Great Pyramid at Giza? No. It is just another building. Dead peoples baggage. Let it go.
The temple is a spirtual one. One does not need a fancy lodgeroom to be a Freemason.
Those who believe that Freemasonry is built on and relies on physical buildings etc. never learned a damned thing anyway.
S%F,
BC
It might be different in Ohio
ReplyDeletebingo
the vote for the dues increase was legit.
ReplyDeleteDDGM Bud Cygan was present at all our meetings, and we did everything according to code in regards to the vote.
That was not an issue.
Business and mathematics made the decsion, especially if we were to maintain and refhab and resurrect the building.
The pyramid of Giza's just another building. An accomplishment for its time, but devastation creates ruins. The last meeting I went to was under the canopy of heaven. Buildings, as much as we love them, are temporal. Even the temple at Karnak. Freemasonry continues to a bright future.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure why W.S. has failed to report much on this so far when he reports on significantly less relevant items. I'm not entirely sure that he will, since the proceedings started months ago and there is very little here as the trial progressed. I'm not sure he will report on it.
As for the raising of the dues, just because it fit into the GL rules doesn't mean it was right. Yes, it takes money to fix an old building. Who cares about a building if you're not building fellowship with your brothers? The physical structure is empty if the spiritual one is not fed. Yes, there is bigotry yet in the lodges. It is changing. It has changed dramatically in just the last decade. Let it grow.
Forcing people to your views does not work. Look for example at the 60's experiment. More black men have been killed by gang violence than ever killed by the KKK. Neither the KKK nor the murder by others of your race is right (there is only one race, btw. Genetically, the differences are too insignificant to balk about.) The increase of violent rape since the sixties is also enormous. There was much good done in the sixties by great leaders like the reverend King. None of these men were gods, and all were fallible.
There was much negative to the sixties too. The counter-culture helped produce an addicted culture that produced deaths through disease, violence, and overdose. It helped create illicit drug corporations, easily as evil as any 'legitimate' corporation, and they make billions off of misery and addiction. Aside from the legitimacy of the cigarette companies, there is little difference. Spraying DDT on marijuana crops is not good for the consumers of the product. That's the same corporation who murders people so somebody can get their two bowls to smoke. I'm for legalizing the plant, although I do not use and would not if it were legal.
The matter of Halcyon is out of your hands. Just let it play out. If all goes well, justice will be served. If the GL of Ohio is found to be in the wrong, then that's that. Same if Halcyon is found that way. Just because you feel justified does not necessarily mean you are just.
IF the GL of Ohio is found in the wrong, so be it.
At least now we'll know the FACTS.
http://www.novusordosaeculorum.com/showthread.php?p=47924
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ReplyDelete"My name is still nobody" started this whole thread based on this post http://www.novusordosaeculorum.com/showthread.php?p=47924
ReplyDeleteover at NOS.
It is true that that GLO filed a restraint as it indicates in the post, however, the restraint was to stop the Golden Gloves Boxing event. The court found in favor of Halcyon Charities and the boxing even went forward anyways.
So far the score is
Halcyon Charities = 1
GLO = 0
I thought maybe real facts might have more meaning than wild speculations.
Voltaire:"Every sensible man, every honourable man, must hold the Christian sect in horror."
ReplyDeleteWhen will we hear from the descendants of heretics murdered during the Inquisitions?
I want in
Although I'm not a Spanish lawyer, I believe the statute of limitations has run on this claim.
ReplyDeleteThis suit has about as much of a chance of succeeding as an ice cube has of surviving in Hell.
ReplyDelete""My name is still nobody" started this whole thread based on this post http://www.novusordosaeculorum.com/showthread.php?p=47924
ReplyDeleteover at NOS.
It is true that that GLO filed a restraint as it indicates in the post, however, the restraint was to stop the Golden Gloves Boxing event. The court found in favor of Halcyon Charities and the boxing even went forward anyways.
So far the score is
Halcyon Charities = 1
GLO = 0
I thought maybe real facts might have more meaning than wild speculations."
Well, the trial is still going on. It's tough to imagine that the judge would not dismiss an issue that is solved, but possible. There will be further action on it listed as "SETTLEMENT CONFERENCE on 06/15/2009 at 09:00 AM". It says further if no settlement is reached it will go into litigation. THOSE ARE the FACTS, ma'am. If we shouldn't suppose that it's only around $200 in legal fees, why should we suppose 200k? Doesn't sound like a victory yet if the clock's still running. Keep the scores in order.
For the 'exact copy of the charges filed with the Cuyahoga County Court of Common Pleas by the Grand Lodge of Ohio.' Against Halcyon lodge, go to this site:
ReplyDeletehttp://abelscenotaph.blogspot.com/
Finally, some concrete information! Howard Roarke claimed the lawsuit was about stopping a boxing match or somesuch. The charges don't seem to mention that. I wonder why someone so close to the issues would spread false information? Only Mr. Roarke knows for certain if he was trying to deceive or just woefully mistaken about something he claimed knowledge of, or the website I offer here is wrong. At least we have some information, valid or not, with the purported case files offered. Why don't you cover this, B.T.? It's news, to say the least.