On Sunday evening the website of the United Grand Lodge of America was updated to reflect a new status, a new focus, and a new order of amity with worldwide Freemasonry.The UGLA is now officially the Grand Orient of the United States of America. After months of discussion, the organization is now in amity with the Grand Orient de France and through them, with George Washington Union and Freemasons across the world.
The Grand Orient de France is the largest Masonic organization in France, and was formed in 1733. It was the only Masonic Order in France until the end of the 19th century. Its members outnumber all other French grand lodges combined.
The new Grand Orient of the United States of America's website says:
LIBERTY — FRATERNITY — EQUALITYMasons | United Grand Lodge of America | Grand Orient of the United States of America | Grand Orient de France | Freemasonry | Burning Taper | BurningTaper.com
The Grand Orient of the United States of America is a continuation of the Masonic traditions began by brothers such as Benjamin Franklin and the Marquis De Lafayette. Our lineage can be traced back through the Grand Orient of France to the original speculative Grand Lodge of London that was established in 1717. These traditions and ideas are at the very core of Enlightenment thinking that eventually resulted in the freedoms enjoyed by every American today.
We hold true to these beliefs:What is today the Grand Orient of the United States of America began on December 27th, 2005; several lodges declared their independence from the 'Antient' Masonic system and formed a confederation of sovereign lodges under the banner of United Grand Lodge of America. In so doing, they sought to restore Modern Free-Masonry to the American continent and return to the traditional Enlightenment and cosmopolitan ideals expressed in the original Craft. This event allowed the original streams of Masonic thought still existing in Europe to once again flow freely into lodges in America.
- That every man is endowed with certain inalienable rights
- That peace and harmony among human beings is only possible where there exists a separation between church and state
- That absolute freedom of conscience is an essential element in the pursuit of happiness among all peoples
- That all human beings are created equal and that equality is fundamental to democracy and freedom
In November of 2007, several more lodges declared their independence from the 'Antient' Masonic system and the Council of the Order was convened to formalize our relationship with our brethren in France and throughout Europe. The Council voted unanimously to change the name of the United Grand Lodge of America to the Grand Orient of the United States of America to better and more precisely identify it with the existing currents of Modern Free-Masonry throughout the world.
The Grand Orient of the United States of America is a masculine Masonic obedience that works together with the mixed-gender obedience lodges operating under George Washington Union throughout the United States. Together, these two systems represent the most liberal and progressive form of Freemasonry in America, which is open to all people regardless of race, creed, or sex.
Our aim is the brotherhood of all humanity through a universal chain of union extending around the globe. If you are already with us in spirit then you are welcome to join with us in Masonic lodges throughout the world.
The link doesn't work.
ReplyDeleteAre you considered regular by UGLE?
ReplyDeleteTry http://www.grandorientusa.org
ReplyDeleteIt appears that the Grand Orient of France has had, and subsequently survived, a splintering off. Seems that such a breaking-off of 'malcontents' in their order has not destroyed them. In fact, they seem healthy and doing well. I doubt this will have much effect. Peace out.
ReplyDeleteFrom American Co-Masonry:
"American Co-Masonry traces its lineage to 1879 when twelve dissatisfied lodges separated from The Grand Orient of France and founded the Grande Lodge Symbolique de France.
The years that followed were full of controversy for the young Obedience when a woman journalist, Mademoiselle Marie Deraismes, who was a defender of women rights and the Craft, was initiated by the Lodge " Les Libre Penseurs" (The Free-thinkers). This lodge was one of the original lodges and had reserved in its charter the right to initiate women, proclaiming the essential equality of man and woman."
More on the schisms for the Grand Orient. Same as it ever was, and both systems survived it:
ReplyDeleteWikipedia article
"Schism of 1877
In 1877, at their convention, the Grand Orient de France (GOdF) on a proposal of the protestant priest Frédéric Desmons, removed the term of the Great Architect of the Universe (GAOTU) from their Constitution.[6] The members of the convention saw their decision as a way to return to the original Constitution of James Anderson of 1723. The GOdF changed the first two sentences of its constitution from (translated from French) Its principles of Freemasonry are the existence of God, the immortality of the soul, and human solidarity. It considers liberty of conscience as an inherent right of each man and excludes no one because of his beliefs. into Its principles are liberty of conscience and human solidarity. It excludes no one because of his beliefs.[7]
However, this decision lead to a schism between the Grand Orient de France and the United Grand Lodge of England (UGLE).[8] Since the great schism of 1877 freemasonry is divided in two branches, Continental style or irregular freemasonry and Anglo or regular Freemasonry. These two branches are not in mutual regular amity.[9] The Grand Orient de France (Grand Orients, irregular) and the United Grand Lodge of England (Grand Lodges, regular) are the basic models for each variety of freemasonry."
I'm so confused. I feel like I need a spread sheet to keep track of all the declinations and divergent orients and lodges and grand lodges . . .
ReplyDeleteI'm starting my own grand lodge: The North American Grand Lodge of Disaffected Southern Gentlemen Living Abroad and Whisky Collectors.
Anagram anonymous stated: "It appears that the Grand Orient of France has had, and subsequently survived, a splintering off. Seems that such a breaking-off of 'malcontents' in their order has not destroyed them. In fact, they seem healthy and doing well. I doubt this will have much effect. Peace out."
ReplyDeleteMaybe I read it wrong, but it seemed that the Grand Orient of France is in recognition with the Grand Orient of the United States, not in competetion?
I may be wrong, but that is how I read it.
GOdF, George Washington Union and Grand Orient of the United States are in amity with each other, they are all sister Grand Orients.
Equals......
no schism here, all love and brotherhood
ReplyDeleteYes, you read it wrong. It is in regards to the celebrated schisms between Halcyon Lodge, which actually splintered away from its GL, and Euclid which formed an entire lodge. Obviously, the Grand Orient of the U.S. is claiming amity with the G.O. of France. The excitement over whether regular Masonry will survive this new 'revolution' is what I was commenting on. You can rest assured it will. Just as it and the Grand Orient have before. Peace out.
ReplyDeleteWaiting to see the 'brotherhood' you offer. Words are cheap, and the coffee's warm.
ReplyDeleteI like the new GL of "The North American Grand Lodge of Disaffected Southern Gentlemen Living Abroad and Whisky Collectors." That one sounds even better!
The Grand Orient of the United States in the newborn daughter of the Grand Orient of France. It is the sister of the George Washington Union. The brotherly love between the three could not be greater.
ReplyDeletePerhaps, but entirely irrelevant to what was said. The 'schism' was and is between the UGLE and the GO of France, and has been going on for more than a century. It has NOTHING (do I need to repeat it?) nothing to do with the amity between the GO of the US and the GO of France. Never, ever mentioned that, never thought such a thing existed between a one-day old org., and have no idea why it's even being mentioned.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWhatever. The illustration is to show that the UGLE isn't the only one with schisms, that the GO of France has had its schisms in the past and survived so far.
ReplyDeleteOf course, with all the 'brotherly love' being thrown about by the GO of US, it seems they might show the regulars some; but where is the love? Not even into its first 24 hours, and already its promoters are saying 'it doesn't care' what the UGLE Masons think. Despite appearances, many UGLE brethren care what the GO brethren think, even if they don't agree, and wish them well in their travels. We are all part of the brotherhood of man, and the coffee's getting cold already. Peace out.
More recent battles and potential schisms inside the 'liberal' G.O. of France because they refuse to allow women to join. From :
ReplyDelete"The blog Lost in France reports that at the recent annual meeting of the Grand Orient of France, "sixty percent of the 1,200 delegates attending rejected outright the proposal that was put forward by their slightly more liberated Grand Master Jean-Michel Quillardet to allow women to join their Lodges."
According to the website, the GODF was founded in 1773, and has over 48,000 members."
Seems the Grand Orient of France is not without its problems and 'malcontents'.
Link on last post was from . People should check out that blog; it's interesting!
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteOf course, we're not discussing us. If you think calling someone as clandestine is an insult, that's your problem. There should be some use for the signs of recognition. If we are to accept everyone as a Mason just on a claim then Masonry would not exist at all. What am I apologizing for? I take it as no insult if the girl scouts won't allow me to sit in their meetings. Just simply don't belong, that is all. I don't think they hate me for not allowing it. Persecution complex perhaps?
ReplyDeleteYou've already stated you do not care what I think anyway. I'd rather not sit in any lodge with someone who first shows me contempt, THEN offers me the hand of friendship. With friends like that...
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ReplyDeleteYes, I just feel the brotherly love and understanding. You say you welcome me into your lodge and offer me your hand, and then you say I make you sick? Talk about 'saying one thing and then turn around and stab you in the back.' Wow, you did it in a couple of posts!
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThe new Grand Orient will offer freedom to American Masons in a way they could never before have imagined.
ReplyDelete1. Lodges will be able to choose from hundreds of Symbolic rituals. They no longer have to do the same ritual as everyone else.
2. Many of the old European Rites will be restored and available to any lodge to work.
3. Masonic education will be the norm in lodges, as opposed to the exception.
4. All Grand Orient lodges will be "Traditional Observance" because they are traditional in nature.
5. Lodges will be sovereign and the Grand Orient will serve them, not the other way around.
6. Racism is abolished. The Grand Orient is open to all men regardless of color.
7. The Grand Master cannot issue edicts or expel any brother. Masonic justice will be before a jury of your brothers.
8. Masons will be able to visit lodges around the globe full of brothers who seek the same level of enlightenment as they do.
This has been a long time coming but it is well worth the wait. :-)
Saul
yap yap yap yap
ReplyDeleteI will be petitioning one of the Grand Orient lodges. I agree with their beliefs and want to be a part of something that makes a difference in the world.
ReplyDeleteKnock yourself out. I already belong to something that I agree with the beliefs IS making a difference in the world. Peace out.
ReplyDeleteAnagram,
ReplyDeleteWhat exactly does your Masonry do in the world? The Grand Orient is actively engaged in defending human rights, fighting religious intolerance, and promoting awareness of global warming.
Objective
It's curios to wonder why people think the GL in the Southern Jurisdiction IS acting outside of the will of the brethren at large. I highly doubt it is outside the majority of the lodge's opinions in the South.
ReplyDeleteGranted, not ALL brethren likely agree, but that doesn't mean that the majority do not. The South is like that, after all. ALL GLs serve at the will of the brethren, and if they did not it is hard to see them getting away with it for long.
If you can PROVE that the majority of brethren in the South do not agree with the GLs stance, that would be one thing. I disagree with their stance entirely, but it is not up to me to decide. Freedom doesn't necessarily mean you are free to agree, it means you are free to disagree as well. It seems the G.O. only wants people to think what they think, and assumes free thought leads to the same conclusions. That is Non sequitor.
I have sat in lodge with African American brethren of ethnic decent from around the world. We treated each other as brothers and respected each the other's opinions, even if we did not always agree.
Their website does not say that they are in amity with or recognized by the Grand Orient of France.
ReplyDelete"What exactly does your Masonry do in the world? The Grand Orient isactively engaged in defending human rights, fighting religious intolerance, and promoting awareness of global warming."
ReplyDeleteMy Masonry performs difficult and expensive surgeries on sick children without asking for money. My Masonry shows brotherly love one to the other. My Masonry provides relief for sickness and distress in disaster ravaged areas. My Masonry is actively engaged in defending human rights, fighting religious intolerance, and fighting for freedom of and from religion. My Masonry pays for college for young students. My Masonry promotes literacy and education. My Masonry does all that and more. It's not just 'my' Masonry. Individuals who are Masons spread awareness of global warming, although it's not an official stance of the Fraternity.
What exactly has your Masonry done to defend human rights rights recently? What has it done to promote religious tolerance recently?
ReplyDeleteAs far as helping sick children it appears that the Shrine does this. I just read a report that showed the Shrine provided 98% of all Masonic charity, and that they are considering leaving American Masonry.
What gives?
Instead of pushing each other around the playground claiming whose Freemasonry is better (masonry is wall building, by the way and not Freemasonry), consider that the Craft is primarily designed to assist THE INDIVIDUAL in perfecting himself and engendering a charity that actually translates to compassion--not posturing on what organization makes the most difference.
ReplyDeleteOn this, you are both running up the wrong flagpole. Work on yourselves and stop this bickering.
Freemasonry prides itself in teaching the social virtues--one of which is to communicate like gentlemen.
To the GO cheerleader--you're not representing yourself very well here and I'm sure they have not appointed you spokesman. Methinks you should stop posting here and go practice your Freemasonry rather than flaunting it.
IMHO, of course.
And please, no retort is necessary. I've heard it all before with the rest of the haters and "revolutionaries".
--TIAMAT
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete100% of the Shrine are Masons. ALL Shrine donations are Masonic donations. Nothing gives. You have to be a Mason to become a Shriner. The Scottish Rite publishes a magazine devoted to keeping government and religion separate. ALL Scottish rite members are Masons. THE most important thing the Blue Lodge does is to make Masons. That is extremely important and influential in society.
ReplyDeleteThere is no contest here. It is to be pointed out, however, that the regular lodges are doing excellent work in many cases, and most are changing in a positive direction. I will state for the record that I definitely have no use for any GL or GO that does not care what I think, regular or not. IMO, my GL does care about what the brethren think. It *is* about improving the individual. That is absolutely true, and nothing I've said here disagrees with that. I certainly bear no ill-will toward anyone who bears me none, and also no ill-will toward those that do bear me ill-will. These points I've made are points of fact, and for further education.
ReplyDeleteAs for the Shrine intending on leaving; if there was overwhelming support for those that wanted to leave, they would. The problem is that all Shriners are Blue Lodgers, and most of them do not want to leave. Blue Lodge is a fraternity, not a charity. We do charity work because we are a brotherhood, not the other way 'round.
Application for Scottish Rite membership:
ReplyDeleteScottish Rite application
"I approve and will uphold the fundamental principles, as announced by the Supreme Council, of patriotism, respect for Law and
Order, Loyalty to the principles of Civil and Religious Liberty, Separation of Church and State and oppose any attempt to appropri-
ate public monies – Federal, State or Local – for the support of sectarian or private institutions."
I wish your organization the best in the future. The Grand Orient holds no ill will towards any person or Mason.
ReplyDeleteIt is good to hear you say so. I as well, wish the best for the G.O. Let us all recall that we are all rough ashlars, and differences of opinion are bound to arise. More than anything, I hope and believe the future is bright for the future of Freemasonry. We might not be able to agree on every point, but we can strive to improve ourselves; and in so doing, improve the world. Let us lay aside our differences to our the extent of own abilities and concentrate, as the brother herein offered with sage advice, to improve ourselves. If we manage that, all else will follow.
ReplyDeleteWhy is there a competition going here? Brethren and Sistern, this represents a real and significant door opened for those in North America who have failed to find what they want (or create) in their current Lodge and Grand Lodge. Stop bashing each other and play in your sandboxes (together or alone) and remember that before you took your obligation you were assured that your vows would not be inconsistent with your civil, moral or religious duties (at least in my two jurisdictions).
ReplyDeleteSupporting (or at least accepting) these Brethren and Sistern in their endeavors is inline with all of our duties. If your obligation is in conflict with those duties then ask yourself the question....?
If you don't like it and don't want to play in their sandbox then don't, some of them may still choose to play in yours, but I suspect that a lot of your Brethren will contemplate playing in theirs (yes it remains to be seen). If they do, or do not, it is all good, because those who are not interested in such a body will not participate. If you feel the need to bully and attack those that choose this other path (or both paths) then perhaps you should not call yourself a Mason until you have had a chance to internalize the lessons of Brotherly Love, Relief and Truth. Polish your ashlars together or alone, but please stop throwing rocks since none of us are perfect and we all live in glass houses.
Enough said.
Safe journey to all and congratulations to these Brethren (and those who choose to join them) on their new path.
FYI: Sister in its plural form is "Sisters", not Sistern.
ReplyDeleteGood post though, I totally agree with you.
Some of us are just enjoying an opportunity to discuss and present ideas, nothing more. You came in a little late, that's all.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteMr. Anagram Anonymous you are GREAT!!!
ReplyDeleteBy the way if everyone was to look at a large gray animal, large in nature, with big floppy ears and a long trunk, and had every physical and mental characteristic of an elephant wouldn't everyone call it an elephant. With this being said if something had all the characteristics of a clandestine lodge, from the hyphenation of Freemasons to the fact that they grant "amity" to clandestine lodges. The clandestine lodges that i speak of are ones that allow the initiation, passing, or raising of an old man in his dotage ___________ or a woman.
Progression is nice, but not when it comes to not only breaking, but attempting to completely destroy ancient landmarks, why don't we just say to hell with the ancient landmarks and break our entire oaths, that will be very progressive!!!
There are simple reasons that only men are allowed to be Freemasons, because men can relate to men, not women we are a BROTHERhood. Men relate to each other we understand each other, and therefore better support each other. I know this is a rant about "Co-masonry" (which is an oxymoron in itself because WOMEN can't be made a mason, if they are made one someone severely messed up).
So now we have one clandestine lodge granting amity to another clandestine lodge... What does that mean? Absolutely nothing other than there are wacko's out there who want to walk away from brotherhood to something that they may more easily manipulate at will and make everyone happy with, so that they may be glorified, these are dishonorable men whose obligations mean nothing to them...WHATSOEVER.
And yeah, I called you Grand Orient guys out there dishonorable because if you will break that one part how do I know that you will not break the rest of your oath.
And no I'm not saying that men and women are not completely equal... THEY ARE... But what I am saying is that we are to be a support network for our brethren and men can relate to men and can better understand what the other is going through.
And yes uniting all brothers under one canopy of brotherhood is a great idea but not when it is gone about in the completely wrong way. For example, say that you had completely failed at uniting brothers in America, you gave up and "extended" amity to the grand orient de France, so that you might just get recognized by someone out there.
And kids, the point of this story is that these men are DISHONORABLE. If you want men and women to be working together just go join the Rotary Club or something.
If you have any way of telling me that you aren't breaking your oaths, let me know, I'll be here to reassure you that you are.
Free-thinker
Sorry, Sistern is incorrect... Typing too quickly.
ReplyDeleteSistren however is correct. Antiquated much like Brethren, but still correct:
Definition of Sistren
Sis´tren
n. pl. 1. Sisters.
Cheers
There is a word sistren, though it has a somewhat different history from its male parallel. Both words were used in Middle English (12th to 15th centuries) simply as the plural forms of brother and sister. From about 1600, brothers began to take over from brethren (Shakespeare used both), except in referring to fellow members of a religious community, or a society or profession. Even this use is now rather archaic (though groups such as the Plymouth Brethren keep it in use). Sistren, meanwhile, had fallen completely out of use by the middle of the 16th century, but has been revived (and used almost exclusively) by feminist writers.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutwords/brethren
This is much ado about nothing. These guys just changed their name from "United Grand Lodge" to "Grand Orient." They apparently do not claim to be connected with or recognized by the Grand Orient of France. It's just a name change. Big woop.
ReplyDelete"Sorry, Sistern is incorrect... Typing too quickly.
ReplyDeleteSistren however is correct. Antiquated much like Brethren, but still correct:
Definition of Sistren
Sis´tren
n. pl. 1. Sisters.
Cheers"
Cool! I really had no idea!
So, how can a Lodge that calls itself "co-Masonic" and admits women be a "clandestine Masonic Lodge" if it is, by definition, not a Masonic Lodge at all?
ReplyDeleteJust saying.
exactly right light traveler!
ReplyDeleteYou sure? ;-)
ReplyDeleteIf it's not a "clandestine Lodge of Masons," then there's nothing saying I cannot visit it.
Careful Brothers, logic is dangerous.
ReplyDeleteBrandt
Light traveler,
ReplyDeleteI hope you wouldn't be going to it for any masonic purpose, because if it claims to be masonic (even though logically it couldn't be), then it would be clandestine. So if you want to sit with the ladies go try to join some other organisation. Masonry is for men and thats what i obligated myself to, therefore I will stand by my obligation for the rest of my life, because I am a man of my word and that is that. I'm not sure where anyone here was made a mason but I said in my obligation that I wouldn't.
Here's my favorite poem about the obligation. And our obligation is what makes us Masons.
In Masons' Lodge with darkened eyes,
And cable tow about you,
You swore to keep all mysteries
That Masons keep and Masons prize;
The Brothers' secret whispered low;
The words they speak, the things they do,
In mystic manner taught you,
On yonder book, that oath you took,
And you should break it never,
But stand by this ___, and this ___, and this ___,
Forever and forever.
You swore to answer and obey
The summons sent you duly,
By Brothers' hand or Lodge away;
You swore that you would never stray
From ancient laws and rules that bound
Freemasons in the days renowned,
But would observe them truly.
On yonder book, that oath you took,
And you should break it never,
But stand by this ___, and this ___, and this ___,
Forever and forever.
You swore with generous gifts, to care
For those in sorrow stricken,
The Brother on the darkened square,
The mourner with disheveled hair,
The orphan doomed, alas! to stray
Along life's cold and cheerless way,
Whose tears gush forth unhidden.
On yonder book, that oath you took,
And you should break it never,
But stand by this ___, and this ___, and this ___,
Forever and forever.
You swore with honesty to deal
With each true heart around you;
That "honor bright should ever be
Unbroken bond" 'twixt him and you
Nor wrong, nor guile, nor cruel fraud
Shall ever break the holy cord
With which that vow hath bound you.
On yonder book, that oath you took,
And you should break it never,
But stand by this ___, and this ___, and this ___,
Forever and forever.
You swore the chastity to keep,
Of woman true and tender,
Of Masons' widow, wife or child,
His mother, sister, undefiled --
Those pure and innocent, whose love
Make Masons' home like that above;
You are the sworn defender.
On yonder book, that oath you took,
And you should break it never,
But stand by this ___, and this ___, and this ___,
Forever and forever.
These are our vows, Brethren, our care,
And may such light be given
In answer to our earnest prayer,
That we may do and dare
All that God's sacred laws enjoin,
So, when the evening shades pass o'er us,
We may be found in Heaven.
For, on yonder book, that oath we took,
And we will break them never,
But stand by this ___, and this ___, and this ___,
Forever and forever.
Quite a moving poem eh?
Free-thinker
If I'm not entirely mistaken and might be excused for not having the exact details, the UGLE recognized Women's Masonry a few years ago as being valuable for the women or somesuch. In this way, a clandestine lodge of Masons can be superficially Masonic by definition and still not recognize all or any of the landmarks. It is like having a corrupt police officer; until he is exposed and dismissed, he is still a police officer. Not someone necessarily one who upholds the law and is trustworthy, however. If only the claim of being a Mason is good enough, then anyone who wishes can make such a claim. The duty to prove themselves a lawful and worthy brother lies solely on the claimant, not on the lodge to prove they are not. If a lodge has no recourse but to allow any claimant into their lodge, they might as well hold it in aisle 9 at Wal Mart.
ReplyDeleteFreethinker,
ReplyDeleteIf an all male gig works for you that's kool, but for me it seems a little dated. Dude, this is the 21st century and society has changed since the 1700's. You may be into hangin with the old guys but I'm looking for something a little more in line with today's global infusion of culture.
When you guys start talking about oaths and obligations, and other spooky stuff, it turns me off.
The Grand Orient guys seem to be in touch with the modern world, and I can relate to what they're saying.
That lengthy poem was weird. It makes the Masons sound like some Jim Jones cult. Maybe you should let up on the weird stuff and just tell people about your organization.
Objective,
ReplyDeleteFreemasonry is about the esoteric studies of the inner self. It's about making good men better.
I'm sure you'll agree that men and women don't think the same way, react the same way or feel the same things. Our lessons are meant to teach on a physical, intellectual and spiritual level and are designed for men.
In a purely esoteric sense, those lessons would have to be reworked to work for women as well.
Elim
Thank you Elim for being able to put that in a suitable statement, I tried earlier but i kept on getting frustrated, that was nicely put.
ReplyDeleteAnd Objective please take into consideration his words, they are as accurate as accurate gets, if you are interested in Freemasonry, I will let you know that you will never fully comprehend anything you read about Freemasonry nor will you be able to fully appreciate it, unless you are part of Freemasonry.
Best Regards to you Objective,
Free-thinker
Those oaths and obligations taken are self-imposed, and taken in accordance to our own wills. There is nothing scary about them to those who have taken them. They do not conflict with your duty to god, others, or yourself. No one is forced to take any oath, and their agreement to fully and freely take them is affirmed first. I would be entirely shocked if the Grand Orient does not have similar oaths and obligations, but ask them as I cannot speak for them. Also, I understand that the G.O. of France does not make women Masons, and the G.O. of America already stated they are a masculine observance. Elim and Freethinker offer wise council here.
ReplyDeleteFreeThinker, my logic was sound, it was my premise that was (knowingly) false. (That's why Brandt pointed out that logic is dangerous, and he is right.) Clearly, women can be made Masons -- the standard obligation would not bother to prohibit something that cannot be done in the first place. At any rate, Euclid is not co-Masonic, and I didn't mean to push a meme that Brandt had only used (elsewhere) for illustration.
ReplyDeleteElim, I would say that any two men can think just as differently than any given man and woman. I am liberal as the day is long, and yet I have often sat in Lodge with guys who are slightly to the right of Atilla the Hun. For the most part, that's not been a problem.
eric,
ReplyDeleteYes, I would agree that there are differences between men and women. That doesn't help to explain why so many women find spiritual fulfillment through Freemasonry.
I've discovered American Co-Masonry and George Washington Union, and both are mixed gender.
Due to this I am led to believe that you may be wrong about the nature of Freemasonry. Women do seem to derive something valuable from its teachings.
Light Traveler,
ReplyDeleteThank you for clearing that up. You seem like you have interesting points to bring up and as a whole understand the principles of our institution. I am conservative (when it comes to most things) and I sit in lodge with men who are liberal and I love them just as much as any other brother. Because disagreement and debate leads to a better understanding of brotherly love and Freemasonry as a whole.
Free-thinker
Brother Lighttraveller,
ReplyDeleteLogic is useful in determining rather or not a particular premise is internally consistent. In other words it determines if a premise is in contradiction with itself or with its application.
We cannot pass a law that makes water dry. We continue to try but it just won't happen. Logic would dictate that since water is wet we cannot legislate that away. Of course if we did pass the law we would have to admit that water existed. Hence my discussion regarding women Masons.
They must exist or there would be no law/rule against it. Like water, it does not appear that it has worked to negate the fact that women Masons exist.
We must keep things in a reasonable perspective if we are to take into consideration the laws/rules. Are the internally consistent? Is there a reason for the law/rule? Does the law/rule accomplish anything worthwhile?
The arguement that it just can't be done because of a landmark is spurrious. Anderson's Constitution was written by a man and therefore flawed. At this time I won't even attempt to get into linguistic issues as I am in a rush. A constitution can be changed. If the Constitution of the United States was incapable of change slavery would still be legal.
That was amended (the 13th Amendment) to correct a wrong. The Constitution needed it to be consistent with morality and the times. I am sure that you see where I am going with this.
Fraternally,
Brandt
Bro:. Brandt,
ReplyDeleteWhat about the prohibition against "innovations in the body of Masonry?"
Tony
I agree that they might. However, it's not designed for them to get the full experience of the initiation.
ReplyDeleteHaving been initiated into many mystery schools and occult systems, I can assure you that when a ritual is not designed to be gender-specific, one gender always looses something in the experience.
Elim
Brother Tony,
ReplyDeleteAre you referring to innovations like many of degrees that are in practice today?
Brother Eric,
Having myself been initiated into other mystery schools I am curious if you could explain to me more clearly how Free Masonry is gender specific?
Fraternally,
Brandt
Dear Brandt,
ReplyDeleteThis is an excerpt from Anderson's Constitutions...
The persons admitted Members of a Lodge must be good an true Men, free-born, and of mature and discreet Age, no Bondmen no Women, no immoral or scandalous men, but of good Report.
Also all men involved in regular masonry made an obligation to not be involved in the initiation passing or raising of a woman.
Now you may say that our traditions are outdated, and if freemasonry was starting out in this day and age, women might be included in possible membership, however it is not, not to mention there are many ways in which men and women think differently, we are totally different creatures, and would not be able to support each others personal needs. If women would like to start an organization of their own that is fine, but I will not recognize it as a Masonic body unless it is recognized by my jurisdiction (which it will not be accepted at Grand Lodge by vote any time soon because there are too many men who hold their obligations true). I made an obligation and I will not bend it to my own personal ideas.
Those are just a few ideas of my own, I guess you can say that I am a man of my word, and I am not capable of recognizing women as Masons ever because of that point. And once again times they are a changing but Masonry can't. Just as atheists or irreligious libertines can't join, women can't. So in short Masonry is gender specific because of the solemn and binding obligation, that every one of us made of our own free will and accord. And as you know if you are truly a Mason Mr. Brandt, during the opening and closing ceremonies in most lodges the question is Asked What makes you a Master Mason? and the answer is "My obligation".
-Freethinker
Brother Freethinker,
ReplyDeleteIn my jurisdiction, the Master of the Lodge tells us that nothing contained within the obligation can conflict with our duty to God, country, family, neighbor, or self. As someone who has received light, it is my duty to impart it on anyone who is a worthy seeker, regardless of gender. Denying light to someone because they are not of the correct gender is, in my opinion, immoral and in conflict with my duties to God and others. Therefore, I have no problem with ruling the clause of my obligation that prohibits me from being present at the initiation of woman void.
As to your attack on Bro:. Brandt, I was present at his initiation, passing, and raising. I can assure you that he is more of a true Mason than any man your likely to meet.
Tony Melton
Euclid Lodge
Tony,
ReplyDeleteWhat you do is up to you and you only, personally I obligated myself not to do so, and I will stand by that because when I make a promise in front of God and man I keep it.
Also please do not think that I was attacking Brandt, i was only stating that he may or may not be, seeing that there are many people who speak on this website and believe themselves to be authoritative on the subject and later i find them to have never received any of the degrees.
Nothing of my earlier comment was meant in any way other than in brotherly love. However those people who believe in Co-masonry are cutting themselves out of brotherhood under the regular masonic canopy, and its sad but if i ever had the chance to sit in lodge with them I do not now, because of my personal beliefs and my fortitude of masonic conduct.
And there is no way I would throw away seven generations of Freemasonry to join any irregular lodge. Why would I jeopardize my mind and conscience with a loathesome act of breaking a promise before God, once again my opinion.
Also you can into Masonry by your own free-will and accord, and I do not see how it is your duty to change something that has been in existence for at least 617 years, actually I do not see how it is any Masons duty to do anything other than what he stated in his obligation.
All of this has been said by my opinion and my knowledge of the craft, and my own personal beliefs, and yes as i do believe anyone that breaks any part of their oath is a dishonorable person. But all I can do is comfort and council those brethren.
-Freethinker
Freethinker wrote:
ReplyDelete"[T]here are many people who speak on this website and believe themselves to be authoritative on the subject and later I find them to have never received any of the degrees."
Have some of the commentators on this site represented themselves as Freemasons, but were not? Who are they, and what is your evidence?
— W.S.
Widow's son the word Master should have been used in that statement.
ReplyDeleteBut for one Objective speaks as one who has not received any of the degrees (this may just be him taking himself out of the masonic realm to better logically investigate things, however i doubt this is the case since i have read many of his postings, and he still holds bias) but makes many great claims to know so much.
And BC 2006 is a fellowcrafter who has not received the third degree yet speaks to know so much about the fraternity as a whole, when there's is much to be learned from the third degree.
I know thats only two out of the many visitors you have but they do post a lot! And kudos to them for keeping discussions going even though i don't agree with many of their points, it helps me to personally grow through research and debate.
-Freethinker
I don't feel attacked. Please, by all means, continue.
ReplyDeleteBrandt
Please, do continue. Nothing's shocking, nothing's insulting. We'd like to hear more.
ReplyDeleteHoly Cow, not again. Is this another attepmt by the same people to get attention? I placed "United Grand Lodge of America" in my search engine and when I clicked on the site the "Grand Orient of the United States" site popped up. When will these folks ever give up. This is the last of many attempts to form what they want to claim as a Masonic Grand Lodge, Masonic Body, Legitimate Masonry. It is not. There are two legitimate Masonic Grand Lodges in every State. They are the Grand Lodge of that state (Grand Lodge of_______) and the Most Worshipful Prince Hall of every state. These fly by night groups are not Recognized by UGLE. I can't remember a phrase I read once regarding these groups but bottom line they are not real. Those seeking Masonic Light should contact one of the two Grand Lodges in their state and start from there. A clue would be that these "wannabe" Grand Lodges offer no addresses or phone numbers. I assure you that the two Grand Lodges that I mention above in any state will furnish "real" contact information. While most Masons see it as "wannabe" Masonry there are those that will be deceived by these folks. Masonry like anything else should be thoroughly investigated before one joins.
ReplyDeleteSincerely,
Manny Blanco,PM
Well Manny, I guess you are just going to have to deal with it.
ReplyDeleteGod Bless,
Brad
Very "Masonic" Brad...
ReplyDeleteYou just can't let anyone have a differing opinion, can you?
You ought to be very very careful about slinging igneous missiles at people Brad... your glass house is pretty fragile.
Manny is a member of my lodge (or vice versa).
Yeah, I think it is pretty Masonic. Manny was pretty upset and he seemed to use the term "wannabe" a lot. But that is ok. He is just going to have to deal with it. Because Manny may not agree with the Grand Orient but the Grand Orient does not rely on Manny. I guess he will just have to learn to deal with it.
ReplyDeleteBrad
Dear Brad,
ReplyDeleteFor the record I do not consider the formation of these bogus Grand Lodges or the calculated acquisition of Halcyion Lodge assets Masonic. Time will also tell us if they have broken any laws. There is a time line of what happened. This you know as well as I do. Before we go further I would like to know if you are part of this group? That would make a difference. Members of these types of groups tend to paint a lovely picture of what they are selling but in the long run they are exposed for what they are. There are many avenues of Masonry that a person may travel. Bogus Masonry is not one of them. Of course Brad I will live with it. Those seeking Masonic Light should know what they are getting into and that it is not part of Recognized Masonry. This group is not built on a solid foundation nor do they have a true history. Something is wrong to say the least. What they are selling is deception. This is my opinion. Thank you for allowing me to share.
Sincerely & Respectfully,
Manny Blanco,PM
Moreno Valley Masonic Lodge # 804
Moreno Valley, CA
Jurisdiction of Grand Lodge of CA
I have been further reading up on the Grand Orient group. I see that "Devout Freemasonry" is indeed part of this group. Sir, the Grand Lodges that I am a member of show all the contact information such as where they are located, how to contact someone, list of Lodges under it's jurisdiction. Would you please furnish such information?
ReplyDeleteThanks in advance.
Sincerely & Respectfully,
Manny Blanco,PM
Moreno Valley Masonic Lodge # 804
G.L. of CA
Manny,
ReplyDeleteI don't see the need to provide you anything. At the end of the day I do not report to Manny Blanco. So, with that being said I wish you well on your endevours.
Cheers,
Brad
Nice Brad, very masonic of you.
ReplyDeleteA legitimate group does not fear or hide. The REGULAR grand lodges all publish the list of lodges masonic, their address, phone numbers and email addresses. You can even directly email the grand master of masons of California, if you want, or, more appropriately I suppose, the grand secretary.
So, your answer to a legitimate question is a snotty one... wow... very masonic, very charitable, very brotherly...
You asked if I would chose Br. Peterson as a mason given the choice, and of course the answer is yes. Manny Blanco (masontruth) is one of the finest, most honorable men I have had he privilege of knowing through masonry.
If you knew anything about freemasonry, you would know that right up next to Ed King, Nelson King, Paul Bessel, George Geanoulis, Bill McElligott and a list so long you would never bother to read it, Manny is in the top ten.
Bro:. Manny,
ReplyDeleteIt appears that you can contact the Grand Orient through their website at http://grandorientusa.org/
Tony
quote
ReplyDeleteBro:. Manny,
It appears that you can contact the Grand Orient through their website at http://grandorientusa.org/
Tony
end quote
You'll just be talking to Jeff Peace, which I believe Wr. Blanco already does on occastion.
Wr. Dunn, every post I see from him shows me the wisdom of what was decided by the brothers of the Lodge in which he was Initiated and Passed.
And you can email the GM of CA directly, I have done so on several occations at this point, he is truely a stand up kind of man. I personally know all the Grand line with the exeption of the current JGW, and I am looking foward to the next serveral years of having them leading our craft.
Manny appears to be someone suffering from severe delusions. This isn't surprising when one looks at the organization and people with which he is associated.
ReplyDeleteGrand Lodges claiming that you can only leave Masonry with their approval (i.e. suspension, expulsion, etc.). Lodges of men being told that they can't leave without approval. Men being held against their will to obligations they disavow. Your organization has all the qualities of a cult.
Grand Lodge Masonry is suffering from a deep institutional psychosis that promotes delusions of grandeur in its members. The general public views the whole thing as silly and pompous, but I believe at the core lies a disturbing sickness.
If Manny wants to throw the term "bogus" he can do the legwork himself. I find it rather repulsive. You catch more flies with honey or so the saying goes. I find it a ton of gaul to insult me then ask for my assistance. One would think a grown man would know better.
ReplyDeleteGod Bless,
Brad
"Grand Lodges claiming that you can only leave Masonry with their approval (i.e. suspension, expulsion, etc.). Lodges of men being told that they can't leave without approval."
ReplyDeleteThat's not how it is in any GL I am familiar with. You are free to leave at any time without suspension or expulsion. You don't get to take the lodge's resources with you, however. They belong to the lodge.
"Men being held against their will to obligations they disavow."
No one is 'held against their will'. They ARE held to uphold the verbal agreement they made with their brethren, their lodge, and in so doing to their Grand Lodge. They are free to break their vows, but they are NOT free to break a contract and still enjoy the benefits the contract provides. Try buying anything on credit and not paying for it. You broke a contract, and thus release the other party from living up to their end of the deal.
"Your organization has all the qualities of a cult."
Apparently taking a solemn oath you don't think is solemn and intend on breaking when you take it is to be admired. To break your word is admirable. Wow-if personal integrity equals being a cult, the world has changed extremely since the inception of the age of enlightenment. I have no use for people who take oaths, and then complain when they have to live up to their words. I'm glad I was able to help you choose a path. You apparently want something easy where so you can break your promise to your brethren at any moment. Perhaps the G.O. can offer you that.
Goodness, this is very simple. I post my Home Lodge it's Masonic Jurisdiction. Any Organization that I am affiliated with has an address, phone number, names of those holding office and links to Lodges and Appendant Bodies. Both Lodges are Conferring Degrees regularly and very active in the community. A simple Internet search will show you our activity. A man can leave his Lodge, or Masonry or that matter anytime he so chooses. He cannot on the other hand take the Lodge assets with him. The Master of the Lodge can not decide to take everything, lock stock and barrel. A non-profit group was formed by certain members of Halcyon Lodge and the assets transferred. I can go on Brad. This doesn;t take a brain surgeon to figure out or see. What I am concerned about are the victims, the members of that Lodge that were not informed of this move, men who are seeking Masonic Light and are sold a "Bill of Goods" that holds no water. Brad, please prove me wrong in anything I have posted. Show me an address on your site for the Grand Lodge or any Lodge for that matter, show me the Grand Officers, the ohone number, a clerk that can be contacted. Please feel free to go to the site of any "real" Grand Lodge and you will see all the above and then some. Show me a real history and not a piggy back from the past.
ReplyDeleteSincerely & Respectfully,
Manny Blanco, PM
(Real Name)
Moreno Valley Masonic Lodge # 804
(Real Lodge)
Grand Lodge of California
(Real Grand Lodge)
"If you knew anything about freemasonry, you would know that right up next to Ed King, Nelson King, Paul Bessel, George Geanoulis, Bill McElligott and a list so long you would never bother to read it, Manny is in the top ten."
ReplyDeleteDear Brother Theron,
Thank you but I do not find myself worthy to be in such a group of good men. You did leave someone out that I will add, Brother Theron Dunn. The men you mention above are some of the most dedicated men in our Craft. Each one has unselfishly given to Freemasonry and continues to do so with their every breath. These men and those like them have Masonry in their hearts and in their every breath. I proudly include you in that category.
Sincerely & Respecfully,
Manny Blanco, PM
Hello Brother Tony,
ReplyDeleteThere is only a "fill in the blank" form.. No other contact information.
I have never spoken to Jeff Peace. He did attempt to contact me a few times.
Thank you Brother for sharing your thoughts.
I too have had the honor of speaking to our Grand Master and many Past Grand Masters in California. They have always been available and Brotherly. One can immediately see the reasons why they were chosen by the Brethren to serve. AWESOME Masons...
S & F,
Manny Blanco, PM
"If Manny wants to throw the term "bogus" he can do the legwork himself. I find it rather repulsive. You catch more flies with honey or so the saying goes. I find it a ton of gaul to insult me then ask for my assistance. One would think a grown man would know better.
ReplyDeleteGod Bless,
Brad"
Brad, you simply prove my point about the group. This is always the route taken by members of such groups. I have written nothing that isn't true and have asked nothing but information. This information should be provided and available by any honest Masonic Organization.
Sincerely,
Manny
Ok, I get it now. Manny is a cult priest and offers soothing words devoid of reason to the followers. Fascinating!
ReplyDeleteGrand Lodge Masons are truly bizarre in their behavior. I've never had the opportunity to witness grown men groveling over one another before. lol
It's no wonder you guys are the butt of party jokes on campus.
Fasinating,
ReplyDeleteYet again someone that was complaining about regular masons, when all they were doing was telling the truth, because he didn't like the truth, has resorted to petty name calling.
I guess when you have no validity, you must resort to personal attacks.
"You asked if I would chose Br. Peterson as a mason given the choice, and of course the answer is yes."
ReplyDeleteHhhhmmm, Gotta problem with me Brad Cofield?
If you care to address your concerns about me with me personally, like a man would do, I am here.
I stopped posting to blogs, but for you I will make an exception.
So tell me Brad, what is the problem with me?
Fair warning though, I will not handle you with kid gloves. Others have been very patient with you. Some see you as a misguided child. I do not, and won't treat you as such. So, if you care to discuss personality traits, lets do it.
Br. Arthur Peterson
"Peterson throws down the gauntlet at young Mason."
ReplyDeleteThis is pretty consistent with what I've seen from you guys in the past. You gang up like mobster and humiliate your victims into submission.
Sounds more like a cult all the time.
"This is pretty consistent with what I've seen from you guys in the past. You gang up like mobster and humiliate your victims into submission."
ReplyDeleteActually, it was an invitation for a one on one. I did not and am not asking anyone elses participation in this discussion between Brad and I.
I did nothing to humiliate him. I simply addressed his action of using my name in a discussion in which I am not part of.
What is humiliating in my opinion is your assumption that Brad can not speak for himself and that he needs you to do it for him.
Br. Arthur Peterson
I'm just commenting on what I witness taking place here. Masons are not very humble, honest or brotherly.
ReplyDeleteAt least you're being honest about your aggression towards other Masons.
Do you guys challenge each other to fist fights in lodge too?
Masons are the weirdest group I've come across so far.
"At least you're being honest about your aggression towards other Masons."
ReplyDeleteI am honest about everything. Some do not like it but I don't sugar coat the truth.
"Do you guys challenge each other to fist fights in lodge too?"
Most deffinately not. You are assuming the individual I addressed is a Mason. I assure you that I do not know him as a Mason. Therefore I will treat him as I would anyone else who would speak ill of my name behind my back.
"Masons are the weirdest group I've come across so far."
We are weird, no doubt about it. I prefer to say we are peculiar, but weird does work in this day and age.
If we are the weirdest you have come across though, I would think you haven't been around much. I can think of many groups who are off the charts in regards to weirdness.
BTW, if you are formulating an opinion of Freemasonry based on what you have seen on the net, you are hardly getting a full picture. The vast majority of Masons do not even discuss the craft with their families much less discuss it publicly on the internet.
If you want a true picture of Freemasonry, visit a local lodge and talk face to face with a Brother.
Br. Arthur Peterson
So it's not ok to engage with a Mason in a fist fight but it's fine to slug it out with anyone else?
ReplyDeleteThat's a very interesting concept of civility.
Maybe I should consider the Elks or something a little more tame?
"Maybe I should consider the Elks or something a little more tame?"
ReplyDeleteThat is a fine idea!
Br. Arthur Peterson
Now the Grand Orient de France is certainly the oldest Grand Lodge in the world, and it´s certainly closer to the Enlightenment frame of mind than most of the so-called "regular" lodges. But it certainly doesn´t outnumber all of the other french grand lodges...
ReplyDeleteIn any case, american freemasonry would be MUCH better off if embracing some of the "esoteric freemasonry" that we en Europe call, plainly, "freemasonry".
Because, I´m sorry but, organizing barbecues and singing the national anthem is NOT what freemasonry is supposed to be about.
Frat,
Chris V.
http//franc-masoneria.org
Franklin Wrote:
ReplyDelete"Now the Grand Orient de France is certainly the oldest Grand Lodge in the world, and it´s certainly closer to the Enlightenment frame of mind than most of the so-called "regular" lodges. But it certainly doesn´t outnumber all of the other French Grand Lodges...
In any case, american freemasonry would be MUCH better off if embracing some of the "esoteric freemasonry" that we en Europe call, plainly, "freemasonry".
Because, I´m sorry but, organizing barbecues and singing the national anthem is NOT what freemasonry is supposed to be about.
Frat,
Chris V.
http//franc-masoneria.org"
My Brother, It appears that you are not very familiar with American Masonry. Nor do I think that European Masonry is superior to American Masonry or Masonry anywhere in the world. The tenets we hold dear are the same in Masonry in America or wherever a man calls home. Where a man lives or what side of the ocean means nothing if true Masonry is in his heart. I do though thank G-d everytime I recite the "Pledge of Allegiance" or sing the "National Anthem." I consider it an honor and a great privilege. Are not Masons Patriotic in France? I imagine so. Thank you my Brother for sharing what Masonry means to you.
Sincerely & Respectfully,
Manny Blanco, PM
Moreno Valley Masonic Lodge # 804
Grand Lodge of California
Our French Brother Chris V, greetings first and foremost, and to the statement : "In any case, american freemasonry would be MUCH better off if embracing some of the "esoteric freemasonry" that we en Europe call, plainly, "freemasonry".", I could not agree more with that.
ReplyDeleteNow, I am not generalising saying that ALL nook and crannies of American Freemasonry qualify, but from MY experience, live and electronically, that is the case.
When I was the sitting Master of my Lodge, after reading sections of Manly P. Halls "Lost Keys of Freemasonry" at a Lodge meeting, I was approached by a PM and PLEO who told me to keep my Lodge education to no more than 5 minutes because no one wants or will listen and pay attention to something over that.
I have read of similar experiences, so I know I am not alone there, but an opening up of the minds towards education and recognition would do us wonders here in America.
It is a large world which is our Temple. To draw dividing lines in the sand towards Masonic recognition and Masonic information and histories is detrimental to ourselves and humanity. Divided we have less of an effect, united we are stronger and could have a greater impact on world that needs to be impacted.
IMHO
PS:I am not attacking anyone, so please no personal, negative refutes. This my opinion and my opinion only and reflects my experiences and no one elses.
Thank you
It's not just ABB's opinion and experience; mine is the same.
ReplyDeleteImmediately after delivering the talk (hear it • read it) "A Tour of the Lodge," I was told by a Past Master it wasn't appropriate, and was too long.
Masonic education, the actual discussion of history, symbolism, and values, bores most blue lodgers. It's been greet, meet and eat for so long, an entire generation (or more) of Freemasons thinks that and the occasional degree and catechism examination are all there is to Freemasonry.
I'd like to see some return to these types of discussions in lodges. Otherwise, quite frankly, I can't see the point in having a meeting.
— W.S.
It is a dark and lonely path you will follow, therefore you must now pray foryourself.
ReplyDeleteFreemasonry is about inner discovery. One should comtemplate the meanings of the allegories and symbols and discover for himself just how they apply to him, and how they're gentle instruction will best improve him.
That is why you do not see long disertations as Masonic Education. That is why you do not find hour long discussions on esoterica. Because it is personal. What you get from Masonry is not what the guy to your left gets from Masonry.
If you really want to have discussions on the ideas you have pondered, it is better to find a like minded Brother/s. In the past this was difficult. The internet has greatly aided this.
Just my OPINION.
Br. Arthur Peterson
"It is a dark and lonely path you will follow, therefore you must now pray foryourself."
ReplyDeletewtf are you talking about?
Never tell another man what he should do. especially telling another he needs to pray for himself? who are you to make that call?
our pastor?
There is much Light in the discussion the Esoterica.
The reason long speeches are not read in American Lodges is becasue the average american, who fills our ranks, average men, have an attention span of only 5 minutes.
If it is only an internal quest, why do we meet then at a lodge?
why not sit at home and contemplate, since we should not discuss it with others?
I am confused, you seem to sell the Lodge as a quiet place where questions and discussions on the deeper aspects of Life should be kept private?
WOW
I'm glad that is your opinion.
Now you must pray for yourself....
ROTFLMAO
W.S. says "Widow's Son has left a new comment on the post "Grand Orient of the United States of America annou...":
ReplyDeleteIt's not just ABB's opinion and experience; mine is the same.
Immediately after delivering the talk (hear it • read it) "A Tour of the Lodge," I was told by a Past Master it wasn't appropriate, and was too long.
Masonic education, the actual discussion of history, symbolism, and values, bores most blue lodgers. It's been greet, meet and eat for so long, an entire generation (or more) of Freemasons thinks that and the occasional degree and catechism examination are all there is to Freemasonry.
I'd like to see some return to these types of discussions in lodges. Otherwise, quite frankly, I can't see the point in having a meeting.
— W.S."
Being fairly new to this blog I don't know who represents what MAsonically. This post and a few others seem to be a subtle manner of attacking Mainstream Masonry. I have never found any such thing regarding any Lodge I have ever been in or visited. Moreno VAlley gives about 15-25 minutes of Masonic education at the end of every Degree. We call it a "walkabout" for the Candidate and the Brethren in attendance. We also have set aside times for an entire evening of Masonic Education. This is given by our Past Masters. Masons all are always seeking further Light in Masonry. Such thing as you describe might be isolated cases but is not the norm. It is all our jobs to teach Masonic education and learn from others.
Sincerely & Respectfully,
Manny Blanco,PM
"wtf are you talking about?
ReplyDeleteNever tell another man what he should do. especially telling another he needs to pray for himself? who are you to make that call?
our pastor?"
I see you've never been through a degree before.
2B1ASK1, but don't ask me, you won't be recommended.
Br. Arthur Peterson
Regarding my comment about the lack of educational discussions in blue lodges, Bro. Blanco said: "This post and a few others seem to be a subtle manner of attacking Mainstream Masonry. I have never found any such thing regarding any Lodge I have ever been in or visited."
ReplyDeleteIn the South, the lack of, and the lack of desire for, Masonic education in a lodge setting is the norm. It's great you get 15-20 minutes of it in each meeting. In Georgia, at least in the many lodges I've visited, you might once in a while get a five-minute lecture, or a warm fuzzy Internet-pass-a-long anecdote, but you'll never hear anything remotely resembling a discussion of the meaning of rituals, symbols, etc. My attempts at presenting these types of lectures were met with, at best, closed eyes and nodding heads, and at worst, derision.
When I say "negative" things about blue lodge Masonry, I'm usually describing fact and/or my opinions based on what I've seen in Georgia. It's not an "attack" on Freemasonry.
If you care to catch up on the who/what/why of this blog, please read the articles listed under the sidebar category "Burning Taper Backstory."
— W.S.
quote two bowl cain
ReplyDelete"It is a dark and lonely path you will follow, therefore you must now pray foryourself."
wtf are you talking about?
end quote
ummmm.... take a look at the 3rd degree..... It's a masonic thing.
Mr. 2 BOWL CAIN:
ReplyDeleteIf you are a Master Mason, go attend the next 3rd degree in your district and pay close attention to the 2nd section.
Peace.
Question: If I demit from my Regular Lodge and join these new Irregular and Co-Masonry Lodges, does it mean I get to see bare breast during the degree work?
ReplyDeleteMaybe us Mainstreamers are looking at this Co-Masonry from the wrong perspective :-)
Are there Co-ed Shrine Temples too?
LOL
Please don't take this post too serious!
Dear W.S,
ReplyDeleteI believe this is how you view Masonry in the South. I know many awesome Brethren that are members of Southern Grand Lodges. They are well skilled and educated in our Craft. I am sorry that you feel this way. It might apply to individual Lodges but certainly not to all Lodges and Grand Lodges in the South. One man's experience and his interpretation does not make it fact. There are always reasons a man posts such things, most have nothing to do with Masonry. It does no good to go over these reasons. Those seeking Masonic Light in the South or anywhere should visit a Lodge close to them and speak to the Brethren. They can easily come to a conclusion on their own. In most cases they will see that Masonry in the South like everywhere around the globe starts from the heart.
Sincerely,
Manny
"My Brother, It appears that you are not very familiar with American Masonry. Nor do I think that European Masonry is superior to American Masonry or Masonry anywhere in the world. The tenets we hold dear are the same in Masonry in America or wherever a man calls home. Where a man lives or what side of the ocean means nothing if true Masonry is in his heart. I do though thank G-d everytime I recite the "Pledge of Allegiance" or sing the "National Anthem." I consider it an honor and a great privilege. Are not Masons Patriotic in France? I imagine so. Thank you my Brother for sharing what Masonry means to you."
ReplyDeleteDear brother Blanco,
Thanks for your kind reply to my post, which I now see might sound obnoxious to some. It was certainly not my intention to assert european masonry´s superiority: It´s just that I fail to understand why would one had to talk about "esoteric" freemasonry when that´s what freemasonry´s been about all the way (thougth any definition of "esoteric" is likely to be highly controversial). As brother Peterson has rightly put it, it´s all about "inner discovery": but we should wonder why, in this inner quest, we have choosen the tools of the Craft and the ways of Brotherhood; for, as far as inner quest go, any other spiritual path would do the trick.
As for the national anthem, forgive me if I might have seemed disrespectful: I´m not criticizing the fact that one sings the national anthem, just saying that, between the mundane aspects of the profane life -barbecues- and the most solemn ones -patriotism- there must be room, in Freemasonry, for what is specifically masonic: I just don´t see how can that be achieved without masonic education.
And yes, we french masons are patriotic (thought we keep in mind that freemasonry is a universal brotherhood): are national anthem was actually written by a freemason, and there is a masonic version which was sung as early as 1792.
Fraternally,
Chris V.
Dear Brother Chris V,
ReplyDeleteThank you for the clarification and the Masonic education. HAve a great week.
S & F,
Manny
Bros,
ReplyDeleteI am new to the site so forgive me if I seem to be poking into your realm. I think that all of the comments here are good and hopefully should assist our journies one way or another. My primary reason for being a Freemason is my quest for knowledge and to associate with folks that share similar attributes. However, I strongly believe that no two people will ever encounter the same paths as they continue on their journey. I ultimately hold myself accountable for my masonic light when not provided that which I desire. I have traveled to many a nation and learned a lot from various cultures. I can tell you that the rift between the UGLE and the GOdF is no different than schisms amongst Christian denominations, Islamic sects, etc. They all uphold a priniciple belief, but individual preferences dictate adherence defferently. I belong to a lodge that was originally chartered by th GOdF and thus deemed irregular by the UGLE; however, my foundation is that of any Freemason. I believe that just as a a preacher and a priest may disagree, they also have a common bond. Essentially brothers, I believe that we continue to educate ourselves as we go back and forth and hope that we continue on fraternally.
Once again pardon the interruption
No interuption non regular mason.
ReplyDeleteI really do not recognise your order, so you really do not matter to a regular recognised american mason, like me!
it is an awesome time to be a regular recognised freemason!
SO no worries, mate!