W. Bro. Ken Miller, Master of Halcyon Lodge and former Master of Halcyon Lodge No. 498 (no longer extant), released this afternoon a letter addressed to the former members of the former Halcyon Lodge No. 498, explaining the details of the lodge's surrender of their charter to the Grand Lodge of Ohio.Halcyon Lodge
2831 Franklin Blvd.
Cleveland, Ohio 44113-2916
November 21, 2007
Dear Brother __________,
We write to inform you of recent events concerning Halcyon 498. Our lodge has been at odds with the Grand Lodge of Ohio for several months on a number of important issues. Chief among those have been the Grand Lodge of Ohio's attempt to control the content of our website, its unwarranted demand that we shut down our website, its attempt to dictate whom we may or may not associate with, and most recently their attempt to coerce the lodge to reverse a transaction that has been tremendously beneficial to the lodge, the West Side Masonic Temple, and to the community.
The transaction in question is the gift of financial assets and West Side Masonic Temple Company shares in December of last year to Halcyon Charities, an Ohio
non-profit corporation that was founded by several brothers working with community leaders.
There were very good business reasons for making the gift. Before this transaction, the Lodge was losing money every year as it was forced to bear all of the building expenses on its own. Furthermore, after years of neglect by previous management the building is sorely in need of expensive repairs. It became clear to the brethren that if Halcyon 498 were to continue acting as the sole source of revenue to support the building, the lodge would slowly bleed to death over the next few years. The end result would have been the end of the Temple and the death of Halcyon 498. The brethren determined that this was an unacceptable result. Thus, the Lodge unanimously voted that it would no longer fund the West Side Masonic Temple Company.
To insure the long term preservation of the building AND the long term viability of
Halcyon 498, the lodge voted unanimously to gift its securities, including its shares
in the WSMTC, to Halcyon Charities. Halcyon Charities is not a temple company, but is instead a fully functioning public charity as defined by the Internal Revenue Code. Thus, it has the ability to pursue strategies to generate revenue through rentals and through charitable activities that will ultimately lead to tax-deductible donations. It can engage in fund raising to support its charitable programs, and to support building maintenance and operations. Further, its public charity status will position it to seek a local property tax exemption, which (if granted) will significantly improve the bottom line. It is clearly a superior business structure for the long-term viability of the temple.
Halcyon Charities has two goals: serving poor and underprivileged youth, and historic preservation of the building. Halcyon Charities seeks to establish athletic and arts programs to serve children in its neighborhood and the surrounding Cleveland area. It has already established a reputable youth boxing program that is housed in the building. Halcyon Charities is actively seeking strategic partners to establish a youth arts program utilizing the building's theatrical stages. The charity has already contributed significant value to building, including finishing the ballroom to return it to rentable condition, repairing the neglected air handling systems, repairing the roof, and building the boxing gym to house the boxing program. In short, it is doing what the brethren of the lodge hoped it would do when they voted to make the gift.
This transaction was also designed to insure the long term viability of the Lodge.
Without the burden of supporting all building expenses, the Lodge was suddenly solvent and its anticipated dues revenue exceeded its expenses. In just a few years,
the end result would have been a healthy lodge meeting in a safe and healthy building, and enjoying a much higher profile in the community in the process.
Unfortunately the Grand Lodge of Ohio lacks the vision and understanding to
appreciate what the brethren of Halcyon have done. At this year's annual meeting,
several DDGM's and high ranking officers of Grand Lodge made an unannounced visit to our Lodge. MWB Steven Krekus, in the presence of Grand Treasurer MWB Thomas H. Galyen, the current Junior Grand Warden, RWB Bradford Goebel, and all 5 current 22nd District Deputy Grand Masters, read a letter from the Grand Master demanding that Halcyon #498 reverse the transaction and put things back to the way they were — and giving the lodge only 48 hours to comply. The Grand Master stated that if the Lodge did not comply, he [would] remove the duly elected worshipful master and secretary of Halcyon Lodge #498 and assume control of the lodge. After reading the letter, brothers Krekus, Galyen and Goebel immediately left the building offering no opportunity for discussion.
It was both legally and practically impossible for the lodge to comply with this
order. Further, the Lodge determined that it was inappropriate to allow the Grand
Lodge officers to overrule valid elections and remove/replace officers without the
consent of the lodge. Given the 48 hour deadline, the lodge felt that it had to act
immediately to prevent this obvious injustice. Thus, the lodge unanimously voted
to surrender its charter, severing its relationship with Ohio Grand Lodge.
Those present at the meeting were concerned about what would happen to brothers who may want to remain Masons in good standing within the Ohio Grand Lodge system. DDGM Edgar Phelps confirmed that all brothers who had not surrendered their dues cards would remain in good standing and would be permitted to affiliate with another blue lodge. Thus, the good standing of the brethren of Halcyon Lodge #498 is unaffected by this move — your dues card is still valid and you are still a Master Mason in good standing with the Grand Lodge of Ohio. However, upon surrendering the Charter, Halcyon 498 ceased to exist.
It is regrettable that this all happened so quickly, but the unexpected and illegal
mandate by the Grand Lodge left Halcyon Lodge with little choice. We are mindful that many of you have already paid your dues for the coming year, and you will now have to affiliate with a new lodge and pay its dues, if you choose to remain a Mason within the Ohio Grand Lodge system. Thus, it is our intention to provide a full refund to all brothers who have paid their 2008 dues. At this point we will not cash any additional dues checks. If your check has not been cashed yet, you wil get your check back with your dues card. If your check has already been cashed, we will write you a refund check. We wil try to get to everyone, but if you do not receive a refund check within the next 4 weeks, please send us a letter at the address below to the attention of Mike Howard. Note that we have already paid the per diem to Grand Lodge of Ohio, so you are in good standing and should have no problems affiliating with another blue lodge.
Many former members of Halcyon 498 have turned in their dues card and formed a new lodge that is not affiliated with the Grand Lodge of Ohio. We are excited about the opportunity to continue to practice Masonry. To learn more about the new lodge, visit our website at ww.halcyontemple.org. Former members of Halcyon 498 are welcome to petition our new lodge, known as "Halcyon Lodge."
Ken Miller
Master of Halcyon Lodge
Former Master of Halcyon 498
Masons | Halcyon Lodge | Halcyon Lodge No. 498 | Freemasonry | Grand Lodge of Ohio | Burning Taper | BurningTaper.com
Glory to Eve who disobeyed the rules and ate the fruit of knowledge
ReplyDeleteand also to her grand-grand-grandson... Tubalcain.
the initiatic path is always, or often, about disobedience.
Brother Tom Coste
Halcyon Lodge
(thanks bro fred for the kind words)
Thanks for your subjective side to the story. I'm sure the legal ramifications for transferring all funds from lodge accounts not totally established by the present officers to an organization of their making, however altruistic the purpose, are going to be very harsh.
ReplyDeleteNow that Halcyon Lodge 498 no longer exists, then how can the money transfered legally remain in control of a charitable organization run by suspended members of that former lodge? That will surely be a test.
Also, the website issue never included it being run by a (twice) expelled member in another state.
Sticky situation, yes. While the letter was nice, I think a little more transparency is in order. But no worries, that is sure to be revealed as time flies.
Good luck!
I do find your blogs very interesting, yet somewhat political. The face of Masonry is truly changing, I feel for the better. Before it finds it way back to its routes all the politics will drive away many a true Freemason. Leave the old boy network to the old boys, leave the exterior workings to those that have left the true craft and have wrapped their journey around the mundane. Our journey is much deeper that the distractions of the old boys that lost their bearing, or never understood the symbols and their meanings.
ReplyDeleteBrother Arthur
Sorry, I did not leave my signature on my last post:
ReplyDeleteH. Rubelo
But how do you truly know is "authentic"? Your prejudice sabotages your reason.
ReplyDeleteH. Rubelo
It seems that nobody acted correctly in this situation. Didn't the Grand Lodge officers 'disobey the rules'? Is that who you're celebrating?
ReplyDeleteAnagram anonymous
I wonder if raising the dues on the old boys so the felt compelled to leave Halcyon displays an understanding of the symbols and their meanings. Just a thought.
ReplyDeleteAnonomous wrote:
ReplyDelete"I wonder if raising the dues on the old boys so the felt compelled to leave Halcyon displays an understanding of the symbols and their meanings. Just a thought."
How do you know they raised their dues, and how do you know why? Did they tell you that or are you a member?
Curious
Grand Lodge of F & A M Ohio Code that ALL SHOW READ:
ReplyDeleteSec 11.09 Property Surrendered with Charter.
When the Charter of a Lodge is arrested or surrendered, the Charter, records,
and all other personal property of such Lodge strictly Masonic in character,
execpting money and securities other than unpaid Grand Lodge Dues, shall
be vested in The Grand Lodge, and be at its disposal.
"I wonder if raising the dues on the old boys so the felt compelled to leave Halcyon displays an understanding of the symbols and their meanings. Just a thought."
ReplyDeleteHow do you know they raised their dues, and how do you know why? Did they tell you that or are you a member?
I know from Jeff Peace
The West Side Masonic Temple is a huge 75 year old 30,000 sq ft building. Anyone with a brain bigger than pea that can do basic mathematics would realize that the heating, electricty and taxes can't be paid on $35 a year.
ReplyDeleteBelieve it or not, a 75 year old building also requires lots of maintenance. When you consider that little or no maintenance had been done since the late 1960's, it is again obvious why a lodge would need to rais its dues to pay the cost of ownership.
The nay sayers on this blog are revealing their own stupidity with their remarks. It is clear they have no idea what it takes to run a large Masonic temple. It is also clear that they have no clue how much dedication the Halcyon brothers have for their lodge and their temple building.
They sit back and criticize without any real knowledge of the events or situation. They have never been to Halcyon, yet they act as if they have first hand knowledge. They are quick to point fingers at brothers they don't even know.
This is why Freemasonry is dying in America. Everyone seems to know everything about everything until they're ask how to fix the problem of membership decline.
You're a bunch of fools pretending to be something you're not. That's why no one wants to be a part of your dying club. All you do is bicker anc complain ay your lodge meetings, and when some of your brothers meet with success you condemn them out of jealousy. Get a life. Get up of your a$$ and do some real work, and maybe people will repsect you.
The whole community of Ohio City respects the Halcyon brothers for what they have done. Does your community respect your lodge?
If all you can do is whine and complain no one will ever want to be a part of your club. Quit whining and complaining and maybe you will earn some respect.
Noble words, all of these, but does the end justify the means?
ReplyDeleteFreemasonry is about character and integrity, not convenience.
I have absolutely no problem with making things better. However, the Grand Lodge of Ohio ALSO has a rule, to protect lodges from just this manipulation, requiring a lodge to get permission from the grand lodge before selling, transferring, leasing, or renting lodge facilities out.
ReplyDeleteThis is a long standing rule, and one we ALSO have in California. It is in place to ensure the fiduciary responsibility of the lodge, and that no brother is trying to enrich himself unjustly.
I imagine if the brothers in Halcyon had actually, oh, I don't know, FOLLOWED the constitution and bylaws they were required by their charter to operate under, this would never have been an issue.
Halcyon Lodge has acted otherwise, and adopted a contrarian position in respect to grand lodge and the rules, edicts, constitution and bylaws. THIS VERY ISSUE would not be an issue if they had followed the rules.
Their acts have cast a shadow on their integrity, especially when the GL told them to reverse the transaction, transferring the building to an "outside" charity, and instead they voted to surrender their charter and keep the building.
More, it is clear they did not give due and timely notice to ALL the members of the lodge, but rather held the vote immediately after the GM's declaration was read to them. This is a serious issue, one which the entire brethren should have had a chance to vote and be heard on.
It LOOKS like they acted to prevent the grand lodge from enforcing the rules, and their subsequent actions, surrendering the charter and quitting the lodge, then forming another, clandestine lodge, outside the GLoOH was specifically designed to KEEP the building and its assets.
I have no problem with them quitting. In fact, it would have been, oh, I don't know, kind of honorable if they had simply quit, but they acted to quit AND take the lodge with them.
Not honorable, not masonic, and certainly not legal. I don't imagine it will be long before the grand master reconstitutes Halcyon #498 until other officers and takes legal steps to return all the assets of Halcyon Lodge BACK to Halcyon #498... and out of the hands of this "Halcyon #2".
As for the brothers who took this action, I wish them well in whatever other endeavor they undertake... somewhere else.
How do you know sir that this "Halcyon #2" is in possession of anything?
ReplyDeleteRather presumptuous?
Can you produce some type of FACTS, not speculation, to validify the statement of this other Lodge somehow in possession of "said" assests you speak of?
Please, sir, enlighten us to your claims!
Theron, it is, please show facts to this knowledge of this assest accusation!
you, sir, have been known to run with FALSE info before my friend.
Please show us this is not another case of YOUR wild speculations again!
FACTS are unquestionable
Your wild claims are.
Thanks
S&F
Brother Peter Guzzo
It's funny how Bro. Dunn and others who are with all due respect ignorant of the Grand Lodge of F & A M of Ohio code preach to the Brethren of Halcyon who do.
ReplyDeleteWay back when, a group of Masons petitioned the Grand Lodge of their own free will and accord for a charter. Now a group of Masons of their own free will and accord surrendered the charter. That is a fundamental right of association like it or not...
As for the creation of the Charity, rest assure it was done by professionals with the laws of The United States of America obeyed. So to those who
claim things were done illegally, you might wish to be care on those words
--for you own protection for that is slander and it shall not stand.
-Halcyon Lodge Member
Mr. Dunn, you are so typical of the loser mentality. It's people like you that force the men of integrity out of mainstream Freemasonry. You run your mouth repeating gossip and speculating on matters of which you have no real knowledge. Losers sit back and pontificate while the winners are laboring to succeed.
ReplyDeleteIt's an honor to no longer be associated with people like you. I feel better about myself and my lodge.
The charity may have been set up in accordance to the laws, but the funding of said charity by transfering assests of the lodge was in violation of the rules of the GL of OH, which the lodge was chartered under, and was therefore ileagal.
ReplyDeleteThe surrender of the chater was done in violation of the rules of the GL and the bylaws of the lodge, as a vote of that magnitude would require a notification of the breathern, which did not occur.
Also, it is not slander if what is being said is truethful, and your threats do not scare men of honor, you might be able to bully others but not men of honor.
I also love how these "brothers" argue out of both sides of their mouths. On one hand, the dues had to be raised to save the temple, but then on the other hand, they claim that the only way to save the temple was to give it to a chairity outside the craft. These are contradictory statements.
As for me, I'll sit back and watch while the courts and the criminal justice system set things right.
Gregg Hall
Mr. Hall,
ReplyDeleteIf your appraoch is to "sit back and watch while the courts and the criminal justice system set things right" then why post anything here?
Your post is nothing more than mindless commenatry regarding something you know nothing about. Again, like so many mainstream Masons on the Internet, you pretentiously prentend to know everything about everything, but at the end of the day you don't really know any facts.
Why don't you take your own advice and shut your trap until the facts are known?
Wow, I can feel the love of the so called Brothers.... Who can't even put their names to their words.
ReplyDeleteI put my words down because I get sick of so called brothers telling me I don't know anything, when I have read the codes, I have read the words of the Master of the lodge. So for you to say I know nothing is patently false.
I am continually amazed that a bunch of so called brothers, that are in fact, theives and liers contiue to try and trumpet thier superiority when they can't follow the simple tentents of masonry, or follow the rules and regulations.
I hope every single one of the perpetrators ends up in jail.
Gregg Hall
Br. Peter Guzzo;
ReplyDeleteDid you actually read the letter from MR. Ken Miller, ex master of Halcyon Lodge??? I ask, because IN IT he admits they moved the assets to an outside charity, and that they voted to surrender their charter, rather than move the assets BACK into the hands of Halcyon Lodge #498...
Just curious. I have operated from their own words.
Oh, and the vote? They took it the same night they were informed they had to move the assets BACK into Halcyon Lodge... which means they did NOT give due and timely notice of a SIGNIFICANT change in Halcyon lodge, that of consideration of surrendering a charter.
In my jurisdiction, to do something like that you have to hold a summons meeting, giving all brothers a certified letter 30 days in advance of such a meeting, which practically means 60 days from the date you send out the notices.
Instead, they voted immediately... even IF they were being completely ethical, their actions do not pass the smell test.
A letter written by the then Secretary of the lodge in 2005 to argue a point of ownership, which at that time, was a heavily contested struggle as to who owned the property. The names of the brethren in question have been extracted in order to protect privacy, but otherwise the letter is verbatim of the original. Curious how they argue so forcefully, using the letter of the Code of Ohio against others, but when, just two years later, they’re faced with following that very same code when conducting a business deal so similar in nature, whereby the building is once again held hostage by its inhabitants, they conveniently choose to disregard that same Code. Just a note for those reading who may not follow, Halcyon was one of the names that this lodge has been called over the years. “Franklin Circle” which pertains to the location of the building, and was the name the lodge operated under at the time of the following letter.
ReplyDeleteAccording to R.W.B. F.’s ruling, based on the Articles of Incorporation filed with the State in 1915, the West Side Masonic Temple Company is a for-profit corporation. And such corporations operate their ownership with shares issued at $100 per share and not percentages.
We further agree to R.W.B. F.’s share count listed in his Phase I opinion letter with one exception. The 929 shares owned by Franklin Circle Lodge, No. 498 in West Side Masonic Temple Company, as found in the said corporation’s stock certificate ledger only includes stock transaction until 1970 and neglect our additional purchase made in early 1996. The last stock certificate was written in 1970 and that ledger was missing sometime after that 1970 transaction and not recovered until February 2004.
R.W.B. F.’s count of 929 shares in Phase I opinion for Franklin Circle Lodge, No. 498 corresponds closely to his opinion letter on the same subject back in 1995 (see Exhibit 19). This 1995 letter sets the Franklin Circle Lodge, No. 498 stock ownership at 929 before the 1996 stock purchase. When this purchase is rightfully added, Franklin Circle Lodge, No. 498 should have 1229 shares and majority ownership in the West Side Masonic Temple Company.
1996 stock purchase:
We believe that the transaction initiated in late 1995 and completed in early 1996 satisfies basic contract law, which requires (1) evidence of an offer from seller, (2) acceptance of that offer from the buyer, (3) consideration from buyer to seller, (4) acknowledgment of received consideration from buyer. We submit the following evidence for your review and follows:
(1) We submit that on October 22, 1995, W.B. R., representing the West Side Masonic Temple Company, solicited or offered in writing to Franklin Circle Lodge, No. 498 the willingness to sell 200 shares for $30,000. The letter from W.B. R. is attached as Exhibit 1.
(2) Franklin Circle Lodge, No. 498 acknowledged the West Side Masonic Temple Company’s offer and accepted the terms as is found in the Lodge’s contemporaneous minutes. The minutes for January 08, 1996 are attached as Exhibit 2.
(3) We can prove consideration for the 200 West Side Masonic Temple Company shares by the ledger exchange from Franklin Circle Lodge, No. 498 to the West Side Masonic Temple Company for $30,000 in three disbursements totaling the $30,000. A copy of the Franklin Circle Lodge, No. 498 Treasurer’s Accounting Ledger is attached as Exhibit 3.
(4) Seller (West Side Masonic Temple Company) acknowledged receipt of Buyer’s (Franklin Circle Lodge, No. 498) $30,000 for stock in their January 22, 1997 annual report to shareholders. In the very last paragraph the West Side Masonic Temple Company displays the loan still owed to Franklin Circle Lodge, No. 498 from an earlier 1995 project and the new $30,000 “for which [Franklin Circle Lodge, No. 498] will receive a greater interest in the building…” Not only does this letter verify the acknowledgment of the $30,000 for stock, it simultaneously differentiates the manner in which the earlier project’s financing was defined; loan verse stock issue. This leaves no doubt as to the intent of both parties, specifically W.B. D. and W.B. A., that West Side Masonic Temple Company was sell additional interest in the building by issuing shares.
We conclude that these actions conform to and fulfill the necessary requirements under contract law to solidify the contractual purchase of $30,000 of West Side Masonic Temple Company shares, which should be in addition to R.W.B. F.’s Phase I opinion letter stating 929 shares.
Furthermore, R.W.B. S. was appointed by the Grand Lodge of Ohio in the summer of 2004 to review all the financial records of Franklin Circle Lodge, No. 498 and verify all figures. In that audit, R.W.B. S. submitted testimony that Franklin Circle Lodge, No. 498 did indeed purchase 300 shares for $30,000 in 1996. He further verifies the total shares for Franklin Circle Lodge, No. 498 as greater than 1200 shares. His cover letter and worksheet are attached as Exhibit 18.
We argue that any change to this contract would require, at the very least, the same level of care and procedural steps as was necessary to properly transact and legally contract the 1996 stock sale.
Interpretation of Exhibit 22:
During the Phase I collection of evidence by W.B. F., Bro. K. submitted an undated document that has the appearance of some type of possible loan agreement. This document is attached as Exhibit 22. This document is very vague and cannot be backed-up by any written with either West Side Masonic Temple Company or Franklin Circle Lodge, No. 498. It is a strange anomaly to all the existing evidence provided to the Arbitration panels to date and it is open to interpretation.
Bro. K. has offered his “interpretation” of Exhibit 22 claiming it is the reversal of the above-mentioned 1996 stock purchase; thereby placing Franklin Circle Lodge, No. 498’s contracted $30,000 from a valid stock purchase into a debt position with no maturity, no stated interest rate or any other terms favoring Franklin Circle Lodge, No. 498. Bro. K. relies on the signatures of WB H. and WB A. as the Franklin Circle Lodge, No. 498 members who obtained the Lodge’s authority to do so. This is illogical for a number of reasons.
1. First, Exhibit 22 does not speak to the idea of reversing anything. It refers vaguely to $30,000 from Franklin Circle Lodge, No. 498. Franklin Circle Lodge, No. 498 has never loaned West Side Masonic Temple Company $30,000 unless it is the consolidation of past loans of smaller increments that are combined to make $30,000.
2. Second, the $30,000 for the stock purchase cannot be carelessly substituted here because that $30,000 is already carefully contracted for equity in the West Side Masonic Temple Company. In order to reverse that $30,000 the stock would need to be “re-purchased at par” and then, by approval of a lodge vote in a stated meeting, agreed to buy, loaned with some favorable terms. There is not even evidence of a discussion of this idea in the Franklin Circle Lodge, No. 498 records or the West Side Masonic Temple Company records.
3. Third, Franklin Circle Lodge, No. 498 speaks very clearly in its records about their intent and agreement to the $30,000 in 1996. They agreed in a stated meeting on January 08, 1996 to buy “capital improvment (sic) stocks. Instead of borowring (sic) money on time {sic}.” The contemporaneous minutes of the Lodge are attached as Exhibit 6.
4. Fourth, Franklin Circle Lodge, No. 498 speaks very clearly in its records about their intent and agreement to the document attached as Exhibit 22. In the Lodge’s stated meeting on November 10, 1997, referenced in the Exhibit 22, the membership agree to simply “loan the Templeboard {sic} $5000.00” and nothing else. Any attempt to alter the purpose of the $30,000 stock purchase from 1996 is not discussed nor agree to by the lodge, on November 10, 1997 or ever.
5. Fifth, the intent of the Franklin Circle Lodge, No. 498 membership and, more importantly, the Franklin Circle Lodge, No. 498 members who signed Exhibit 22, (W.B. H. and W.B. A.), is demonstrated in the Grand Lodge Annual Treasurer’s Report submitted every year subsequent to the 1996 stock purchase. The Lodge always believed that they owned the additional shares and never discussed the possibility of altering that purchase. Moreover, W.B. H. and W.B. A. testify by their own signatures year after year verifying that the Franklin Circle Lodge, No. 498 purchase an additional amount of shares in 1996 and never relinquished those shares. This clear disputes any such reversal of the stock purchase.
6. Using R.W.B. F.’s 1995 letter as the start amount of West Side Masonic Temple Company shares owned by Franklin Circle Lodge, No. 498 (916 shares) and adding the 200 shares purchased in the 1996 contract, the Grand Lodge Annual Treasurer’s report for 1997 declares 1116 shares. This is clearly the 916 shares plus the 200 shares purchased in 1996. W.B. H. and W.B. A. signed the 1997 Treasurer’s Report thereby verifying their intention not to reverse the stock purchase. In the 1998 Treasurer’s Report W.B. H., once again, signs and verifies the 200 share purchase by showing 1116 shares in Lodge investments. Holt and W.B. A. sign and verify the 1116 shares again and again, by testifying on the Treasurer’s Reports for 1999, 2000, 2001, and 2002. If W.B. H. and W.B. A. signed Exhibit 22 to reverse the stock purchase of $30,000 in 1996 as K. suggests, how does he explain W.B. H. and W.B. A. continued acknowledgement of that purchase year after year. It is clear that the intention of Exhibit 22 is something different that a reversal because W.B. H. and W.B. A. never acknowledge the subtraction of the 200 shares of F.C. #498’s investment in the West Side Masonic Temple Company after signing Exhibit 22.
7. Why would W.B. H. and W.B. A. sign the annual Treasurer’s Report for years confirming the 200 additional shares if the signed Exhibit 22 with the intention to reverse the stock position? Did W.B. H. and W.B. A. lie and defraud the Lodge for six (6) consecutive years by falsifying the Treasurer’s Report, as K. suggests OR does it seem more reasonable that Exhibit 22 has a different interpretation?
8. Finally, agreeing to K.’s interpretation of Exhibit 22, after reviewing the written records and facts, forces the Arbitration panel to support a pernicious possibility. That is to say, can one or two individuals commit or spend lodge funds or assets without the consent of the Lodge?
Any interpretation of Exhibit 22 is conjecture unless KA has not provided Franklin Circle Lodge, No. 498 or the Arbitration panels the clear or convincing evidence for his claim. Exhibit 22 is silent in regard to which $30,000 the document refers but, more importantly the concept of a reversal.
We conclude that any ruling that supports K.’s interpretation of Exhibit 22 a reversing the stock purchase which uses Exhibit 22 as his only evidence would be based solely on speculation. Exhibit 22 per se can not support his interpretation. His interpretation is inconsistent with the overwhelming evidence and fails to show that the same care and level of procedure to create the stock purchase was use to reverse it nor does it prove mutual agreement by either party to make such a reversal. Furthermore, any such ruling would start a precedent that allows individuals to commit lodge money or assets WITHOUT authorization and consent of the Lodge, which would be an overturning of the official CODE of the Grand Lodge.
The 1996 stock purchase was executed with an improper cost basis of $150.00. The officers of West Side Masonic Temple Company in 1996 were not informed properly of the set share price of $100.00 in the Articles of Incorporation. This set share price has not been amended since the 1932 filing with the state. Due to this error in 1996 references to the amount of shares purchased vacillates between 200 shares ($30,000/$150) versus 300 shares ($30,000/$100). The former is correct but the historic records refer to the former.
F.’s 1995 letter states 900 shares owned by the Lodge after the recent merger of Bigelow Lodge, No. 243 in addition to whatever additional shares the lodge acquired from individual members up to 1995. The Lodge Trustees calculated 16 shares from individuals. The total was set at 916 shares in 1995 with Grand Lodge approval.
"Believe it or not, a 75 year old building also requires lots of maintenance. When you consider that little or no maintenance had been done since the late 1960's, it is again obvious why a lodge would need to raise its dues to pay the cost of ownership."
ReplyDeleteOr request from the brethren a donation to protect their lodge building, rather than an imposed raising of the dues. It is my understanding that some brethren cannot pay high dues. The low dues make Masonry available to those who have lower financial positions. Loving a building is great, but greater is loving those who have supported the edifice for all those years, both financially and through dedicated work. The raising dues likely came with a mass-exodus of older brethren, did it not? If our lodge needed funds to continue its building, many including myself would crack open their checkbooks and donate more than the dues raise if within the length. To have it forced upon us would be another matter altogether.
I have deleted four or five incredibly long and totally unoriginal posts by "Anonymous."
ReplyDeleteThey may or may not have been on topic. I didn't read them. Some were old Short Talk Bulletins, posted in full, and some were long passages from Manly P. Hall.
Please: 1) Use paragraph breaks. No one wants to read 500-plus lines of mashed-together text. 2) Post something original, or least on topic. If you post someone else's words, add something meaningful of your own. Or just provide a link to the original source. 3) Sign your posts (see "No More Anonymous for You!")
Thank you.
— W. "The Mgt." S.
Didn't we all agree to stand to and abide by the constitution laws and edicts of the our Grand Lodges, and the by-laws, rules, and regulations of our lodges. I don't know if they do or don't make those solemn and binding obligations there, could someone let me know that would be interesting to know if things are the same there.
ReplyDeleteAnd please no attacts on my grammar and spelling, just because I ask a question that's controversial. That crap gets real old, real quick, especially when i'm interested enough in this situation to be up at 4 o'clock in the morning after working for fourteen hours. Please just let me know.
Oh and by the way is it all right to break some parts of our obligation and not others? Or is it alright to pick and choose what parts we should stand by and honor?
Are some parts more solemn and binding than others, or is it one continuous solemn and binding oath. Once again I'm just wondering.
Free-thinker
Free-thinker: I was pondering that question myself yesterday, in the form of "Why do so many people point the finger and say 'you broke your oath' in reference to obedience to a grand lodge, but seldom mention the violation of other items?"
ReplyDeleteAlready online certain people have said Halcyon members are "not Masons" because they "broke their oaths." Yet most of us would find no Masons left in town if we automatically de-masonized all the guys, for example, we've heard "speak ill of a brother Mason" (another one of those things we promised not to do).
— W.S.
FreeThinker357,
ReplyDeleteThat's a good question. Personally, I didn't become a Freemason to follow blindly and without justifiable reasons the dictates of any man.
Recently, Grand Masters have been making decisions and expecting every brother to follow him blindly and without question. If you question him and his reasons you find yourself suspended or expelled without trial. (i.e.: 2 brothers in KY, 7 in GA, 2 Grand officers in VA, 1 brother in VA).
This is an abuse of the oath and obligation by the Grand Masters. I will no longer obey anything without justification.
"The low dues make Masonry available to those who have lower financial positions." - anonymous
ReplyDeleteThe Grand Lodges have no problem raising the per-capita taxes on the lodges to pay the $100,000+ salaries of some of the Grand Secretaries or to help maintain the Grand Lodge buildings. I wonder how concerned they are with the less affluent brethren?
If you can't afford to be a member of lodge with a large temple then there are plenty of other choices out there. Like anything else in life you have to make the right financial decisions for you. If you can only afford a Kia you don't go and buy a Mercedes.
Let's say for example a lodge raises its dues to $150 per year. That's $12.50 per month. If you can't afford $12.50 per month to be a Freemason, then can you really afford cable TV, a cell phone, and an iPod?
One of the reasons that all of our buildings are falling apart is this idea that Freemasonry should be almost free. Sorry, dude, it just doesn't work that way. Money doesn't grow on trees.
Many lodges are still charging the same dues that they did in the 1950's. If you conisder the effects of inflation and the cost of living it becomes apparent why they are failing.
In the 1950's in cost roughly a week's wages to become a Mason. Today it is less than one day's wages. You do the math.
Bro. Gregg Hall:
ReplyDeleteSeveral times I've seen you play "forum police" on your own sites; now it's my turn.
You wrote "...[I]t is not slander if what is being said is truethful [sic], and your threats do not scare men of honor, you might be able to bully others but not men of honor."
and
"I am continually amazed that a bunch of so called brothers, that are in fact, theives [sic] and liers [sic] contiue [sic] to try and trumpet thier [sic] superiority when they can't follow the simple tentents [sic] of masonry, or follow the rules and regulations. I hope every single one of the perpetrators ends up in jail."
You, sir, are apparently not a man of honor. It is libelous to call people who have not been accused or charged with a crime "thieves and liars." Does it not also violate a Masonic obligation to be speaking ill of your brothers in such a manner?
— W.S.
....but you took an obligation.
ReplyDeleteI also have an obligation to my employer by means of an agreement. The agreement is that I do a specified work in return for specified pay. It is a moral and mutually beneficial agreement.
If my employer ceased to uphold his side of the agreement/obligation I would cease to work for him. I also have an agreement with my credit card company. They have extended to me a line a credit that I have agreed to pay with certain interest rates attached to it. If I cease upholding my end of the agreement they have an actionable case against me.
In order for a premise to be truly moral it must apply universally. This is being on the level. So if a Mason violates his obligation to me I am not required to keep my obligation to him.
Fraternally,
Brandt
Quote the WS
ReplyDeleteYou, sir, are apparently not a man of honor. It is libelous to call people who have not been accused or charged with a crime "thieves and liars." Does it not also violate a Masonic obligation to be speaking ill of your brothers in such a manner?
end quote.
No, I do not believe it is libelous, it is the truth, regardless of if charges have been filed or not. As for breaking my obligation, that would assume that I concider them to be brothers, which at this point I do not. If you'll notice, anytime I have refered to them as "brothers" it has been in quotation marks. If they were truely brothers they would not be behaving in this manner, and also there is the little part about them choosing to turn in their dues cards.
There are a couple of brothers out there that have been wrongly removed from their GL's, those I still concider Brothers, there are others that have volunarily turned in their dues cards via demits, but did not attempt to steal the temple when they did so, those gentleman I still concider Brothers, although I can't sit in lodge with them anylonger.
And as I have said before on this subject, if what I am saying is libleous, please feel free to take action. I don't hide behind and an anounamous name, or hide my masonic affiliations either...
Gregg Hall
greg Hall states: "it is the truth, regardless of if charges have been filed or not"!
ReplyDeleteMy America is a wonderful place!
Is not your country the place of "innocent until proven guilty"?
Is not that what your masonic forefathers fought for?
I do not know if you are a mason or not Mr. Hall, but that statement is reminiscent of the old bigotry of yesteryear?!
Mr Hall: Prosecutor, Jury, Judge and Executioner!
bravo sir!
I am glad you possess all the information regarding this situation, you must have been present at all the meetings where all this transpired?
Bro. Aurthur McQuade
Freethinker said
ReplyDelete"...I didn't become a Freemason to follow blindly and without justifiable reasons the dictates of any man."
I am not a Mason and I do not pretend to understand the solemn oaths and obligations you took to become a Mason. I am sure many who are Masons would consider your statement seditious but I have to agree with you.
Freemasonary, like any orgainization, is only a sum of it's parts, made up of imperfect people.
In an earlier posting Jeff Peace talked about the difference between "leadership and control".
Just because someone is raised up in line like pieces on a gameboard does not make them an effective leader.
But because of your oaths are you obligated to blindly follow these leaders?
Or would common sense dictate, as WS learned, that first and foremost become WM of your own personal lodge. Then would it not make sense to use the tools given to you by your farternity to work for the common good?
But even with this you will still inevitability run into conflict in dealing with people and personalities.
What is the answer? I don't have a clue! I guess the best any of us can do is try to live each day with honor and integrity as best we understand these concepts.
Tom Coste, you are right. Glory be to Eve who disobeyed the rules and ate the fruit of knowledge!!!
Me, I am off to find an asprin!!!
SQ
Can someone tell me why Bro. Gregg Hall isn't already in the grand officer line of his jurisdiction's Grand Lodge?
ReplyDeleteHe has all the necessary qualifications. He has mastered the art of snap judgments. He has mastered the art of name-calling. He has mastered the art of picking and choosing which of his obligations he wants to follow at any given moment.
Brothers are brothers, even you. The act of turning in their Grand Lodge of Ohio dues cards doesn't make the Halcyon men no longer Masons; all that can be said is that from the perspective of the Grand Lodge of Ohio, they are now "non-affiliated."
Somebody give this man public grand honors and a fancy gold chain. He certainly deserves them.
— W.S.
quote the WS
ReplyDeleteCan someone tell me why Bro. Gregg Hall isn't already in the grand officer line of his jurisdiction's Grand Lodge?
He has all the necessary qualifications. He has mastered the art of snap judgments. He has mastered the art of name-calling. He has mastered the art of picking and choosing which of his obligations he wants to follow at any given moment.
Brothers are brothers, even you. The act of turning in their Grand Lodge of Ohio dues cards doesn't make the Halcyon men no longer Masons; all that can be said is that from the perspective of the Grand Lodge of Ohio, they are now "non-affiliated."
Somebody give this man public grand honors and a fancy gold chain. He certainly deserves them.
— W.S.
end quote
So, just so I am clear, it not ok for me to critisize these brothers based on specific facts, but yet it is ok for you to tar and feather every grand lodge officer in the fraternity on general principle....
hmmm and you accuse me of picking and choosing??
Gregg Hall
Quote
ReplyDeletegreg Hall states: "it is the truth, regardless of if charges have been filed or not"!
My America is a wonderful place!
Is not your country the place of "innocent until proven guilty"?
Is not that what your masonic forefathers fought for?
I do not know if you are a mason or not Mr. Hall, but that statement is reminiscent of the old bigotry of yesteryear?!
Mr Hall: Prosecutor, Jury, Judge and Executioner!
bravo sir!
I am glad you possess all the information regarding this situation, you must have been present at all the meetings where all this transpired?
Bro. Aurthur McQuade
endquote
First of all, if you want to quote me, please use the entire quote instead of quoting me out of context, it is much more honest.
Second, I am basing my decisions on the words and actions of the "brothers" in question, and the codes of the GL of OH.
Third, I have said I will look for the justice system to take care of it.
Fourth, again, having charges filed etc does not equate to truth, truth is there regardless of charges etc.
And finally how on earth is it bigoted to have an opinion on the actions of someone?? Do you even know what bigotry is?
Gregg Hall
Peace and harmony is the strength of all well regulated institutions, more especially this of ours. There is no question that the situation could have been resolved without without both parties taking the paths that they took, but it would have taken both parties (the Grand Lodge and Halcyon) to act as masons and not just as some little political club. What differentiates masonry from all other organizations is the fact that we hold ourselves to certain values Brotherly Love, Truth, and Relief, the principle tenets of freemasonry. If the GL of Ohio and Halcyon had worried more about those principles rather than their differences they would still have their eyes on the prize (making the world a better place) working towards the common goals. But both the Grand Lodge and Halcyon have fallen into the trap of politics and pride, so neither of them will attempt to peaceably work things out. I have been following this situation for a while and i have come to the conclusion that there are just to many fake masons out there in the Grand Lodges and Local Lodges these days. Too many brothers get too worried about getting in line to serve as something, and don't worry enough about their fellow man. Once again i say "United We Stand, Divided We Fall" we can accomplish so much more by truly working together than by breaking off and starting something new. Yes there are many mentalities within our organization that may be wrong, but we must attempt to continue to work alongside our brethren for the good of the craft. In short more men should have acted as masons not politicians both on the GL's part and Halcyon's part. And once again please do not attack my spelling or grammar if you would like to input some words of council you can email me regarding my rhetoric, my email is Clowe@spsu.edu.
ReplyDeleteFree-thinker
"The Grand Lodges have no problem raising the per-capita taxes on the lodges to pay the $100,000+ salaries of some of the Grand Secretaries or to help maintain the Grand Lodge buildings. I wonder how concerned they are with the less affluent brethren?"
ReplyDeleteIs that your bar; what Grand Lodges do? Pleased to hear that your only goal is to be only as concerned about your brethren as those 'evil' Grand Lodges are.
It is true, that the dues have remained low for a long time; perhaps even obscenely low. Sometimes, the Grand Lodges want to raise them to obscenely high amounts. In the area I live, affording even a used Kia is a struggle for some brethren. Let alone the Ipods and etc. The point isn't whether the dues were raised or not; the point is whether or not the dues were raised with the specific purpose of driving out the older members, whom you at one time called 'brethren'. The hope is that this wasn't the reason, but it's difficult to tell from the responses.
anagram anonymous
"Glory be to the Grand Lodge Officers who disobeyed the rules and ate the fruit of knowledge!!!"
ReplyDeleteWow, looks different with only a slight change of identity in the subject. Way to celebrate the GLs when they clearly disobey the rules!
anagram anonymous
Free-ThinkerGA537 said...
ReplyDelete"Once again i say "United We Stand, Divided We Fall" we can accomplish so much more by truly working together than by breaking off and starting something new. Yes there are many mentalities within our organization that may be wrong, but we must attempt to continue to work alongside our brethren for the good of the craft. In short more men should have acted as masons not politicians both on the GL's part and Halcyon's part."
If it what has been relayed regarding this event, this is entirely true, and it seems as neither party can lay aside their egos and admit culpability.
anagram anonymous
Can someone please explain to me how the GL is wrong, by requireing the Bretheren of a lodge to follow the rules edicts and regulations of the GL, and the by laws of their own lodge??
ReplyDeleteWhen did it suddenly become "EVIL" to expect one to follow the rules that are written down? And how is it Ego driven to enforce those rules and regulations. They were put in place, by the brethern of the craft for the protection of everyone...
Why oh why is that evil?
And before anyone leaps to it, this is not about the PGM of WV, this is about following the uniform code of bylaws of the GL of OH.
Gregg Hall
It is not wrong to follow the laws and edicts of the Grand Lodges. What is wrong are the tyrannical orders of Grand Lodge officers. That is what is wrong here and it is happening across the nation. Bills are not being introduced to the Grand Lodge because the Grand Master doesn't let them, the Grand Masters and their people are passing judgments on men before they can have a trial. There are many things going on in Grand Lodges that are un-masonic by pure essence. However it is the members of the Grand Lodges that allow these men to become officers so whose fault is it? And no Gregg you can't say that some things that Grand Lodges are doing aren't tyrannical if you do obviously haven't been paying attention to the Grand Lodge meetings and the Grand Masters address.
ReplyDeleteFree-thinker
gregg wrote:
ReplyDelete"Can someone please explain to me how the GL is wrong, by requireing the Bretheren of a lodge to follow the rules edicts and regulations of the GL, and the by laws of their own lodge??
When did it suddenly become "EVIL" to expect one to follow the rules that are written down? And how is it Ego driven to enforce those rules and regulations. They were put in place, by the brethern of the craft for the protection of everyone..."
Hello Brother Gregg,
I was the one who said 'evil' Grand Lodges, and I said it facetiously. I do not think Grand Lodges are inherently 'evil' as some are wont to judge them harshly. Many of the brothers in the Grand Lodge line, and they are ALL brothers, are exemplary Masons. It's unfortunate that some GLs don't enjoy such worthy brothers.
The presented information, on both sides, seemed that there were mis-actions from the two parties. That is a subjective opinion based on the very brief overview offered mainly by one side of the equation. Once more information is available, my opinion might change or at least expand.
"It is not wrong to follow the laws and edicts of the Grand Lodges. What is wrong are the tyrannical orders of Grand Lodge officers."
ReplyDeleteI agree wholeheartedly here. Or jurisdiction does not seem plagued with such power, but it is unfortunate if some GLs are.
anagram anonymous
I'm still working on Grand Secretaries who make "in excess of $100,000."
ReplyDeleteNot in any Grand Jurisdiction I"m aware of.
I know the Grand Secretary of GA doesn't make that and even if they did the Grand Secretary and Treasurer deserve something because in this day in age it takes a lot to run those offices. The Grand Secretary and Treasurer have a lot of responsibilities and they are usually well trained in their jobs.
ReplyDeleteBrothers,
ReplyDeleteI don't know about you but I think this is only the tip of the iceberg. This is the beginning of something much bigger that will bring with it sweeping changes in American Freemasonry. I guess it's overdue and we should have been expecting it.
The Grand Lodges were simply out of control and we did nothing to stop them. Now here we are with lodges breaking away and brothers leaving to form new lodges. It's the end of the old system. It may not die today but it's finished.
Authority is a very fragile thing because it's perceived. The established authority has been questioned and abandoned. It's days are numbered. Let's hope the new authority is better than the old. Only time will tell.
quote
ReplyDeleteBrothers,
I don't know about you but I think this is only the tip of the iceberg. This is the beginning of something much bigger that will bring with it sweeping changes in American Freemasonry. I guess it's overdue and we should have been expecting it.
The Grand Lodges were simply out of control and we did nothing to stop them. Now here we are with lodges breaking away and brothers leaving to form new lodges. It's the end of the old system. It may not die today but it's finished.
Authority is a very fragile thing because it's perceived. The established authority has been questioned and abandoned. It's days are numbered. Let's hope the new authority is better than the old. Only time will tell.
Sunday, November 25, 2007 10:52:00 AM
endquote
I think your giving entirely too much creedence to a few people that were unhappy.
They may be vocal and out there on the net, but they are certainly not in the majority, nor are they even really a sizable minority.
Bro Gregg,
ReplyDeleteI think you have made the mistake of underestimating the situation. I can think of three or four dozen brothers in my district alone that would sympathize with them. Who's to say they're not all working together in secret? I suspect many are and we simply don't know the numbers.
It's my understanding that the brothers who have broken away are all professionals, businessmen and leaders in their communities. Halcyon obviously had the help of such people and we know that the RRCG membership was similar.
If the most educated brethren are leaving it's a bad sign. These brothers were the future leaders of the Craft. Now they are gone. How many will they take with them? I suspect more than any of us would like to believe.
Bro Gregg,
ReplyDeleteHere's the way I see it. You may believe I'm wrong, but when you look at things from afar here' what most will see:
The brothers at Halcyon took a temple in disrepair and found a way to salvage it. This means they did what no other lodge or GL has been able to do. They must have good leadership and good business skills.
The GM of Georgia kicked the RRCG brothers out of their lodge and out of Masonry. Today they have a new temple that they built. Again, these brothers must have good leadership and business savvy.
How much good could they have done within Craft if they had remained among us? If they could accomplish these things, how much more could they accomplish independent of the mainstream system?
Don't get me wrong, I'm against leaving and doing your own thing, but I also realize that we're dealing with some very intelligent and capable brothers that have left Masonry.
I honestly believe they have better leadership than we do, and that they will be able to accomplish similar things everywhere they go.
I believed the Grand Master of Georgia was right to remove Jeff Peace a few years ago. Today, I think it was the worst decision ever made by a Grand Master.
All that is required is commited Brothers. The brothers in my lodge built a brand new temple in 68, and new buildings are built every day.
ReplyDeleteOnly time will tell, but I still say, that a few people choosing to move on is not indicative that all of mainstream masonry will crash around us.
And, the courts still have not gotten involved yet...
Bro. Gregg,
ReplyDeleteIf what I suspect is true, is in fact true, then the courts will never be involved. There was some funny business with this temple that the GL tried to cover-up several years ago. I suspect they don't want to have that information made public, and will avoid the courts at all costs.
The GL will have to find a way to work with them and resolve this. I believe that it is in the best interest of Freemasonry that we all try to find a way to work with these brothers. If we allow this to become a mud slinging match then it will be bad for us all.
Bro. Theron needs to stop the mud slinging before they pick it up and start slinging it back at us. We have skeletons on our closet and they know it.
We need to adopt an attitude of mutual respect before its too late for all of us. That's just my opinion.
theron and greg are like the romans wanting more blood from the christians
ReplyDeletemore lions please..
they have become what they hate
name callers and full negative bile
As for Masonry, it will never die in my heart which will continue to beat for years to come, as I anticipate. If regular Masonry goes away, I can't see anything replacing it as these new lodges seem just a repetition of the egotism they complain against. If not now as egotistical now as they appear to be, give them time and they will become what they hate.
ReplyDelete"Glory to the Grand Lodge who disobeyed the rules and ate the fruit of knowledge and also to its great-grand-father...Tubalcain."
Quote
ReplyDeletetheron and greg are like the romans wanting more blood from the christians
more lions please..
they have become what they hate
name callers and full negative bile
End Quote
So Tubalcain, when are you going to give the temple back to it's rightfull owners?
It's easy to speak, but it's always more impressive if you show. We're waiting for you to show us why you're better, Tubalcain420. The actions thus far show nothing. Peace out.
ReplyDelete"All that is required is committed Brothers. The brothers in my lodge built a brand new temple in 68, and new buildings are built every day."
ReplyDeleteWe're with you Gregg. The future of our lodges is ensured with the hands of the workmen, and I won't stop building. Not today, not tomorrow, not for the foreseeable future. Regular Freemasonry is moving. There have always been those groups who did not wish to join us in our good work. Nothing new at all with these 'new' lodges. If there were, the UGLA would be going great guns. Nothing against any of them, and god bless if they can find the secret held in my heart Of course, they can. Not certain their path will be ultimately productive. We can still knock off the unhewn corners of our rough ashlar, but those who suppose they have none never will. They are not to be hated for this error, but to be pitied.
It appears the UGLA isn't the "UGLA".
ReplyDeletehttp://www.uglofa.org/
Freemasonry in America - seen through the eyes of an European profane who's been reading a lot about Masonry lately - looks very strange.
ReplyDelete- "1-day Master Masons" are something beyond my comprehension. In Europe it takes months - sometimes years. From here, it's seen as part of the american "instant gratification" culture, and not taken very seriously. I understand the financial side of it, but it's clear that I'm not alone in thinking that's just not the proper way to do it, and it was never meant to be.
- Lodges with hundreds of brothers where only a few dozen ever show their face are another (bad) symptom. It's a bit like "non-practicing catholics" - which are often compared to "non-practicing nudists": you either are one, or you aren't. There are just some things that you cannot be while not practicing it, or you're just a former member.
Now, join the two above: you get someone who was made a "master mason in a day", and has since paid his dues and attended the occasional and proverbial "fish fry". I bet there are thousands of members just like this throughout the USA. However, does that make them real Masons?
Let me tell you what it looks like from here, from the outside and far away: it seems that Masonry in America could well do without 95% of its members - who shouldn't have been welcomed in the first place.
I don't mean they're bad people - on the contrary, or they wouldn't want to join. However, Masonry seems to be one of those things that takes a lot of time and a lot of effort. I see it as a team sport; if you don't practice regularly, you weaken the whole team. Life is full of choices, and if we cannot fully commit ourselves we'd rather quit.
The GL's "status quo" seems to support a high number of members, even if they're not really committed; some members seem to feel otherwise, and try to make things stricter and membership harder to maintain. Of course they're not the majority. However, they are the ones who make the wheels turn. If they all left, the rest would just die by itself if a few years.
Maybe it's time to really think about one single "United Grand Lodge of the USA", and the end of a GL on every state - which seems to be the root of many problems. Maybe adjacent states could merge their GLs... Wait... no, not that "North vs South" again... Maybe it's not such a great idea, after all...
Simple Aureole
The one day classes are an issue. That is why our lodge doesn't do them, although they've been eliminated in our jurisdiction anyway. They help make members, but or GL wants to make Masons, as does our lodges.
ReplyDeleteOn one hand, there are great brothers coming out of the one day classes. Still, it is not beneficial to blue lodge Masonry in general.
Well, well... looks like someone was already thinking about having a single Grand Lodge... Not the way I thought, though - I never imagined a Grand Orient of America being formed so soon.
ReplyDeleteSigns of the times. I'm afraid this will put an end to the "will they still be regular" question...
Simple Aureole
Throwing up a website isn't much of a Grand Lodge, and calling people you claim to be your brethren 'bobbleheads' is not a good start.
ReplyDeleteMasonry has done fine after schisms before, and we will do fine afterward. Even the Grand Orient of France has had and survived schisms much larger than currently occurring now. I think we can do without them just fine, as we have for many, many years. I wish them the best, but I can do without being called names by those claiming to be my 'brethren', and do not foresee me joining them. Ever. :
American Co-Masonry
"American Co-Masonry traces its lineage to 1879 when twelve dissatisfied lodges separated from The Grand Orient of France and founded the Grande Lodge Symbolique de France.
The years that followed were full of controversy for the young Obedience when a woman journalist, Mademoiselle Marie Deraismes, who was a defender of women rights and the Craft, was initiated by the Lodge " Les Libre Penseurs" (The Free-thinkers). This lodge was one of the original lodges and had reserved in its charter the right to initiate women, proclaiming the essential equality of man and woman."
Simply put, the ex-master of Halcyon Lodge No. 498 and his co-horts hi-jacked this lodge, without following proper procedure and giving all involved the chance to be involved in the politicking that went out that fateful night. He should be ashamed of himself, as well as should his crew of rebels.
ReplyDeletesefSo, in your opinion, my dear Brothers, what is a Clandestine Mason from your perspective?
ReplyDeleteWhat is a Clandestine lodge? Or a Clandestine Grand Lodge for that matter?
For me, any lodge or Grand lodge NOT recognized by the Grand Lodge of Virginia, or any other Grand Jurisdiction of which I may be a member, as being a legitimate Masonic body, authorized to do Masonic ritual is a Clandestine lodge or Grand lodge respectively, and this also applies to renegade lodges who are NO LONGER under the jurisdiction or authority of a recognized Grand Lodge, and hence any Masons who are members of such lodges have two choices 1) Demit and affliate with a regular lodge or Grand Lodge or 2) Reject Grand Lodge authority and remain with the renegades and if they choose option 2, then they make their choice to become Clandestine Masons.
Plain and simple, that is how I understand and define a clandestine lodge, grand lodge or a Mason for that matter.
I guess some feel it is better to be clandestine and content than recognized and miserable.
ReplyDeleteWhat about the recognized and content? I'll tell you right now, as Masons we should never be content, as we should always be working to improve ourselves. That being said, I am content with our Grand Lodge and with being a regular Mason. Certainly, there are disputes, but the brethren-at-large almost invariably win those. If there was entirely contentedness amongst the clandestine lodges, they would not have schisms arguments within them. After all, that is what content implies. Even for their content, they still have disagreements.
ReplyDeletequote----------
ReplyDeleteObjective said...
I guess some feel it is better to be clandestine and content than recognized and miserable.
unquote---------
What, exactly does that mean? I tell you what I see, men (not masons) who out of a surfeit of ego, would rather destroy what they cannot control.
What honest, real mason, starts off conversations with how "evil" the grand lodge is??? Define evil.
What I see is men who cannot convince a majority of their brethren they are right and the others wrong, so they start tossing bombs... a la the Bolsheveks and other anarchists. If you cannot win in the forum of ideas, start tearing down the edifice seems to be the order of the day with these folks.
So, lets see... what are their complaints about the system?
1) they can't work whatever ritual moves their little hearts. Hey, here's a clue, you can work any ritual you want, as exemplification. If you want tradition, use the tradition that exists.
2) They can't do whatever they want with "their" building. Here's a clue, history is replete with examples of men who have tried this in the past, which is why their are rules in place to prevent current members from absconding with assets built by previous members.
3) The assets of a lodge belong to the LODGE, not the brothers, and are held in trust for future brothers.
4)Brotherhood... what, exactly, does this mean? Do the bomb throwers think there is no brotherhood in the lodges now, and is name calling any demonstration of this "new" spirit of brotherhood?
I see the things these bomb throwers are demanding in place in lodge now... except for the claims of evil intentions... real brothers, real masons, don't toss out gratuitous accusations just because they don't get their way. Children throw temper tantrums, adults work together.
All this existential angst is just ego. The men at Halcyon were not good brothers. They decided to violate the rules of the grand lodge, according to the ex master's letter. THEY decided that the Grand Master could not tell them to follow the constitution and bylaws. Talk about chutzpah and hubris!
Typical of Americans, these bombtossers want what they want RIGHT THE HELL NOW. So rather than work in the system to make change (which, by the way, other brothers are doing with great success), they would take their ball and go start another game.
Fine, go play another game, but don't try to call yourselves masons when you can't even ACT like masons. Masonry means something, and it certainly isn't imputing evil to brothers.
Now ex Halcyon members are trying to claim the GL won't dare go after them, imputing bad acts in the past. This is exactly the same crud imputed by an associated member of Halcyon, who told me almost a year ago now that the Grand Master of Ohio would not dare act against their unmasonic activities because they had "dirt" on him and the Grand Lodge of Ohio.
I asked, publically about that blackmail, and was assured, categorically by Tom Coste and the secretary of the lodge and the then master, and others, that it was not true. Then here we have Tom making the same claim.
No, the Grand Lodge won't act in court because bad acts will be revealed which will injure the Grand Lodge of Ohio. Sounds like a echo.
When I asked if it were true, I was assured it wasn't, then I was threatened with a civil suit by the then secretary of that lodge. Now, today, it is republished, and not by me, as an implied threat... take action again the ex members of Halcyon to recover the "misappropriated assets" and we will reveal embarrassing bad acts in the past.
Wow, what an echo chamber.
So, anyone want to tell me how any of this bomb throwing is in any way masonic?
I say, let these guys leave, as they came in... without any minerals or metals, destitute with only what they had when they arrived. I am more than willing to see the few, the loud go.
Please, with my blessing. Go away, and leave freemasonry to freemasons.
Its really not about me changing them, its about me, changing me. If you don't get that, you may really want to just go join the rotary.
Freemasonry means something, and its NOT bombthrowing.
You seem very angry over all of this. I haven't seen anyone from the other side be so hostile towards you. It looks like you're the one with ego problems.
ReplyDeleteI beg to differ, objective. I believe you have not seen it, but there have been very angry words against Brother Dunn. Depending, of course, on what you mean by the 'other side'. To my view, the members of Euclid lodge have acted far better in this conversation than those supporting the 'other side'. However, this invective against Brother Dunn seems fairly angry; "Mr. Dunn, you are so typical of the loser mentality. It's people like you that force the men of integrity out of mainstream Freemasonry."
ReplyDeletequote objective
ReplyDeleteYou seem very angry over all of this. I haven't seen anyone from the other side be so hostile towards you. It looks like you're the one with ego problems.
end quote
Then your either not paying attention, don't read much of what is going on, or are so blinded that you can't see...
It looks to me like you guys (Grand Lodge supporters?) hate the guys that left your fraternity. I believe that where there's smoke there's fire. Some of their complaints must be valid. I really don't see much ego on their part but they do seem angry at the way they were treated by your Grand Lodge.
ReplyDeleteThere are two sides to every story and the truth is usually somewhere in the middle. I seriously doubt that the Grand Lodge is as innocent as you claim, and the guys that left may be very frustrated with your fraternity.
I read some of the posts at lodgeroom and had to laugh. Sorry, but all of your arguments are circular and never go anywhere. It looks like you just reaffirm each other's beliefs without any objective opinions.
I admit that I like what the new Grand Orient stands for and I have shared their web site with some of my friends. We're all interested in the Masons but can see that things are falling apart for you guys.
I don't understand why you don't just talk with one another and work out your differences. All of you seem to want the same thing. It's kind of crazy if you ask me.
I have no problem with those that wish to leave leaving, I wish them only the best. My only problem is a certain group that attempted to steal their temple on the way out the door, and also disinfrnachised the majority of the brothers in their lodge.
ReplyDeleteMany good brothers have left of their own volition and have done so honorablly and they have my best wishes.
The other thing, is if your basing all of your opinions on what your reading on the net, then your information is very squewed as the majority of masons never even see the net.
If your interested in Masonry, go visit your local lodge, talk to the GOOFUS if you wish, learn what is out there for you, and what the pros and cons are of each group, and then make your discision.
I don't see any evidence that the temple was stolen. If that were true then the police would have been notified and arrests made. It looks to me like your Grand Lodge made some unreasonable demands and they simply left your fraternity. Now you're just seeking vengeance against them.
ReplyDeleteIt's also petty of you to refer to them as Goofus. If you were being honest with me then you would have shown respect to everyone.
My overall impression of the Grand Lodge Masons is that they are petty and backbiting. You demand that others live up to obligations that you cannot live up to either. I suspect this has something to do with the present split.
The Grand Orient dudes look to be very sincere about Masonry. The Halcyon web site has lots of readings materials and shows lots of brotherly photos. Most of the other lodge web sites I found had little if any information about the Masons.
You're right that I don't have all the facts but I'm learning more each day. At the moment I favor the Grand Orient guys and like what they have to say. I will be speaking with one of them this evening. It should be interesting.
Light traveler, I do not know where you got the impression that we "hate" those that left the fraternity, nor where you received the impression that we were 'Grand Lodge supporters'. Yes, I support my brethren, Grand Lodge or otherwise. When in error or selfish actions that harms the other brethren I owe fealty to, I will try to correct the wrong. Whether or not they are on the GL. My Grand Lodge supports me and my lodge, so I support them because of that and the fact they are brethren too.
ReplyDeleteThe Grand Orient gentlemen will have a set of rules and regulations, and the Grand Orient has had disagreements itself, so the two systems are no different than each the other in that respect.
I do not hate the brethren that chose to leave, although I am saddened that they felt it necessary-rightly or wrongly. On the contrary, I love deeply those brethren. In fact, the reason I joined a regular lodge has as much to do with my geographical location and the fact I knew a Mason as anything.
The G.O. doesn't seem to offer what I was looking for, and still does not. I have never regretted joining a regular lodge, even if the choice was made partially because there was no other choice. I love what I have found in regular Masonry, and I sincerely hope that those leaving are able to find what they apparently have not yet. If they acted out-of-bounds will be decided in a court of law. I hope they are guiltless, but the information provided does not suggest that conclusion.
Anagram,
ReplyDeletePlease quit trying so hard to sell me on your fraternity. Just tell me the facts and let me decide for myself.
Give me a reason to believe you're for real. All I've seen so far is spin.
No hard-sell, objective. Just a presentation of the facts. You are free to think I am lying if you wish, although I assure you I am not. If you choose to not believe me, that is your prerogative. If you want to join the G.O., I wish you the best in your travels.
ReplyDeleteObjective, good luck on your research, you have a lot to do. i think by now you have seen the defense of regular freemasonry and the promotion of irregular freemasonry. So the rest is up to you to research, and whatever you do with your journeys i hope you fare well.
ReplyDelete-freethinker
I spoke with a guy from the Grand Orient. He was very knowledgeable and answered my questions.
ReplyDeleteThe Grand Orient believes that every person must be granted freedom of conscience in all matters. They want to create a brotherhood of humanity through the formation of a chain of union among people. I found both of these to be honorable.
If I join the Grand Orient I would be an apprentice for a few years and work in my lodge, study and write about Masonry. When my knowledge was sufficient as an apprentice I would advance to a companion and take a bigger part in the operations of the lodge. Then, as my understanding increased, I would eventually become a Master Mason. I was told this usually takes between five and seven years.
With the Grand Orient I can attend "mixed gender lodges" at George Washington Union. I'm also free to join with any other Masonic group I choose. They don't have any restrictions.
They told me to join a lodge under your Grand Lodge too, so that I could get a better understanding of the differences for myself.
I was really impressed with how open they were about everything. The guy I spoke with advised me to never stop learning and to explore all of Masonry because each part had something special to offer.
I'm very excited now and can't wait to get started. I will be getting membership forms from my local lodge, and from the Grand Orient. After I get started I plan to start a blog to share my experiences.
I came away from my conversation feeling much better about Freemasonry. I hope you guys will hang around and help me along.
quote
ReplyDeleteThey told me to join a lodge under your Grand Lodge too, so that I could get a better understanding of the differences for myself.
edquote
this is bad advise. If you join a MS lodge and a GO lodge, the MS lodge WILL tell you quit or kick you out, they might not even give you the chance to quit.
as for joining whatever Masonic organizations you so choose, that is also not correct, you would not be allowed to join the York Rite, Scottish Rite, Shrine, Grotto, AMD, etc without being a MS mason.
You can not serve 2 masters, you will have to make a choice.
As for the temple. You tell me, there are rules of the GL that say that any transfer must be approved by the GL, yet that was not done, there are rules that say the temple belongs to the brothers of the lodge, and if a lodge folds the temple goes to the GL. These brothers have attempted to circumvent those rules by not following them, If that is not attempting to steal the temple, I don't now what would be. This particular group is not honorable. That is not to say that all members of the GO are not, but most certainly not the "brothers" of halcyon.
Gregg,
ReplyDeleteThe Grand Orient has many Rites available. We discussed the Scottish Rite specifically. They have more Rites than the Grand Lodges offer.
It seems strange to me that they allow me unlimited freedom while you claim your Grand Lodge does not. They (the GO) encouraged me to explore and learn, but you want to restrict my exploration. Why?
I thought the Masons were about learning and enlightenment? Why would you want to create barriers to this? It doesn't make sense. It sounds eerily cultish.
Cults demand blind loyalty and it always results in bad things for the members. It scares me to think that I would be so isolated and forced to see such a limited perspective of things. Am I understanding you correctly? Would I really be removed for experiencing other forms of Masonry outside of your Grand Lodge?
Objective;
ReplyDeleteNo one is trying to talk you out of joining the Grand Orient of the USA (By the way, we USUALLY shorten the names, for instance the Grand Lodge of California is GLoCA... so the Grand Orient, by the name THEY have chosen, can be shortened to GOotUSA)
They make lofty claims, and good on them. The real problem is they have a problem with authority of any kind, and the actions of many of the men who are on the ground floor have been less than... upright in appearance.
If you claim the high ground, you really have to act like it, and cannot undertake activities that would appear to put the lie to your claims, as the men late of Halcyon Lodge have done.
The Grand Lodges are FORMED by the constituent lodges. If they can't obey the grand lodge, what makes you think in the long run they can comply with the majority even IN the individual lodges?
I am a regular mason. I like regular masonry, and have no interest in clandestine masonry at all. As Gregg noted (in the interests of full disclosure, Gregg and I are both members of the Grand Lodge of California) a clandestine mason cannot join any masonic body he wants.
Regular masonry is very observant about maintaining true masonry, as Regular masonry see it. That is why regular masons are not allowed (its a self imposed restriction, by the way) to visit clandestine obediences... in the eyes of regular masons, these clandestine bodies are pretenders, not real masonry.
I write that it is a self imposed restriction because the majority of members of any grand lodge can change the restriction. MY grand lodge allows any brother to write and submit legislation for a vote at Grand Communication.
If the majority of brethren wanted to be "free" to visit any group that claimed to be masonic, we would pass such legislation. There isn't even a significant minority of regular masons that want such a "right".
We are hardly forced...
As for the openness of the Grand Orient... if you have no boundaries, no definition, then you can't really claim to be... well, anything. Oh, you can CLAIM anything you want, but reality intrudes in the form of the Regular Grand Lodge system.
There is really no anger... just... amusement at the claims that don't match reality. It only appears that the Grand Orient is formed here, in the US, by a few misfits who want "freedoms" that really don't matter.
I can see as many rituals of different types as I want, via exemplification. I can study them, whatever I want... I just cannot, will not, attend a clandestine lodge to do so.
All that written, the personal attacks on me are unmasonic, and really put the lie to the claims of the proponents of the Grand Orient. Why is there such a problem in these men with differing opinions?
I think the Grand Orient is a waste of time and effort, and not freemasonry. Others feel differently. I am not trying to stop anyone from joining it, and frankly, encourage anyone that is unhappy to vote with their feet.
If you don't like regular freemasonry, by all means, quit and go join the Grand Orient... just don't try to take the assets of the lodges chartered under the regular grand lodges as you go to fund your "new" lodge.
I hope that is clear.
Objective,
ReplyDeleteHaving a book which has the ritual in it for your purusal, does not make it a masonic body.
One of the great promises of Masonry is being able to work in foreign countries.
This means that a regluar member can go anywhere there are masons and find brothers. Be that Masonic, Scottish Rite, York Rite bodies etc.
So, being from CA if I showed up in England, I would be able to be admitted to lodges there for all that I am a member.
If the GOofUSA is infact in amity with the GOdF then they would have a much smaller microcosym of that ablitly. Maybe a hundred or so lodges verses thousands of such lodges.
For example if you were to join the GOofUSA then were to travel to the Bay Area of CA, a fairly substantial market area, you would find no masonic presence for your form of Masonry, but if you were a MS mason there would be many hundreds of lodges you could visit.
As for the restiction part. I am not restricted, I can chose to demit anytime I would like and go and join another body, I just can't go and still remain a member of my GL.
To use a non masonic example, I could not be both a member of the Republican Party and the Democratic Party at the same time. They are both attempting to do the same thing, with different Ideals on how to accomplish it, so belonging to one causes the inablity to belong to the other.
I do not know where you live, but there are also PHA lodges out there that you should look at, there are co masonic orders as well. Please look into all of them, see what flavor fits your needs, and begin your journey.
Just remember that every situation has it's chalanges and benifits. Joining a 3 day old GL has a different set of challanges than joining a 100 year old+ grand lodge. Sort of like the differences of working for IBM vs a start up.
Theron,
ReplyDeleteI've read your blog and many of your posts at lodgeroom. All I see is spin and propaganda from you. For example you claim the acronym for the Grand Orient is GOofUS when the actual one is GOUSA. By using GOofUS you are attempting to smack down another organization and it costs you credibility, not them.
You continually claim to be a "regular Mason" but this claim seems subjective to me. The Grand Orient of France was created by the Grand Lodge of England back in the 1700's. The GOUSA is a continuation of this same tradition.
The more I look at it I'm beginning to see this as a struggle between England and France. Your Grand Lodge favors England, the GOUSA favors France. The argument of regularity is subjective because both sides claim the same status.
If, as you claim, Grand Lodges are "FORMED" by lodges, then it follows that lodges can break away and form new Grand Lodges. You can't have it both ways.
I also don't buy into your argument about personal attacks being made towards you. If anything, it is you who appear to be the agent provocateur in these attacks. Maybe you should consider what Jesus said about doing unto others...
Your continuous attacks against the Halcyon Masons are dubious at best. You point out your Grand Lodge laws only, and have offered nothing to support your conclusions in relation to state and federal laws. Unless you are an attorney or judge, your comments are merely more spin and propaganda.
After speaking with the GOUSA and being reassured that not all Grand Lodge Masons are like you, and that most are genuinely good men, I will reserve my opinion on Grand Lodge Masonry until I have the opportunity to meet others.
Gregg,
ReplyDeleteAre you and Theron professional spin doctors?
The Grand Orient of France is about 275 years old and is associated with many other Grand Orients around the world. They have thousands of lodges just like your Grand Lodge. Most are in Europe and South America, but there is now a growing number in the USA. These are just the facts that I learned yesterday.
Your claim of not being restricted is not honest based on your earlier post. As a Grand Orient Mason I am unrestricted but, by your own claims, I would be restricted under your Grand Lodge. Like I told Theron: you can't have it both ways.
Why not try telling me the facts, and not your subjective opinions twisted with propaganda and spin? I really want to understand the facts and make a reasonable decision. You make it difficult for me when I have to sort through what is fact verses what is propaganda and spin.
The Grand Orient guys made it much easier by just being up front and not trying to hard sell me on their organization. They didn't criticize your Grand Lodge or claim to be superior or more regular. They just told me what they had to offer and left it at that. They even recommended that I join your Grand Lodge and form my own opinions. That told me that they were much more interested in helping me find what was right for me than trying to sell me on why they were the best. You guys, on the other hand, are like used car salesmen.
Greg states:"For example if you were to join the GOofUSA then were to travel to the Bay Area of CA, a fairly substantial market area, you would find no masonic presence for your form of Masonry, but if you were a MS mason there would be many hundreds of lodges you could visit."
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately there is a GOdF blue lodge in the bay area, so there would be brethren there for fellowship.
Why would I need many of hundereds of Lodges to visit. All one needs is just 1 brother for fellowship and brotherly love, not hundreds of Lodges.
Quality over quantity gregg.
IBM only cares about its big clients , where the smaller group gives more individual attention.
Just like schools. smaller classrooms usually get better results.
I prefer the small family owned business's over The Big McOne Day McMasons that fill all these Lodges.
Objective,
ReplyDeleteLets use a little common sense here. The Halycon lodge building belonged to the fraternity for years before these brothers joined, and probably for years before they were born.
How on earth could you think it would be good and proper for those brothers to now be in possesion of the lodge, since it was owned by someone prior to their even being members.
Add that to the fact that the code they were to follow requires approvals, which were obviously not given inorder to transfer such property...
So again, a little common sence would dictate that they have attempted to steal the temple.
How about this, you get sick, your brother is placed in control of your assests, a fudiciary responsiblity, and he decided to toss you into a rest home, and donate your house to a charity he controls, and then the charity decides he can now live there... Think that might be a problem? That is essentially what happened here.
Objective,
ReplyDeleteYes, the G.O. of France was formed in 1733. Our tradition was formed in 1717 on June 24th at the Goose and Gridiron Club in London when three Masonic lodges came together to form the United Grand Lodge of England. We are proud of our heritage, but 'which came first' is not a worthwhile comparison. Obviously, Masonry had to exist before it could form a Grand Lodge.
If you cannot see anger here from BOTH sides, I suggest you look again. Yes, we who love our lodges can seem sometimes a bit over-enthusiastic. Just answer me this one question, does this quote from the thread not seem a bit propagandistic and angry?
anonymous wrote:
"You're a bunch of fools pretending to be something you're not. That's why no one wants to be a part of your dying club. All you do is bicker anc complain ay your lodge meetings, and when some of your brothers meet with success you condemn them out of jealousy. Get a life. Get up of your a$$ and do some real work, and maybe people will repsect you."
"Mr. Dunn, you are so typical of the loser mentality. It's people like you that force the men of integrity out of mainstream Freemasonry. You run your mouth repeating gossip and speculating on matters of which you have no real knowledge. Losers sit back and pontificate while the winners are laboring to succeed.
It's an honor to no longer be associated with people like you. I feel better about myself and my lodge."
I think these two posts represent anger and hostility. When it's said that people don't care about what UGLE masons think and they make them 'sick to their stomach', that we have a 'loser mentality' and they are glad to no you can understand if we become a bit defensive. If you could know our hearts, you might see that what you consider 'propaganda' is what some of us truly feel in our hearts. If we're too enthusiastic for your tastes, that's unfortunate. We see a bright future for regular Masonry, and our lodges are growing. We will not stop. The owner of this blog likes to cause controversy, and that is fine and good. Unfortunately, we are here left with defending our UGLE brothers against unfair attacks, or attacks at least perceived as such.
Gregg,
ReplyDeleteUnlike you I have no need to prejudge anyone at Halcyon. I don't have all of the facts and neither do you.
Why you have a need to personally attack these Masons I don't know, but I do know that it makes you look more like a spin doctor than a brother Mason.
A reasonable person will always remain silent on issues such as this until all of the facts are available.
It's things like this that make me not want to trust you or Theron. Both of you seem to have some hidden agenda.
quote
ReplyDeleteYour claim of not being restricted is not honest based on your earlier post. As a Grand Orient Mason I am unrestricted but, by your own claims, I would be restricted under your Grand Lodge. Like I told Theron: you can't have it both ways.
end quote
How is my claim false, I am not resticted I can choose to leave, that is not a restriction.
I am not spinning anything, do as you will and may it bring you peace and happiness.
What ever the GOofUSA does or does not do will not effect my lodge or my GL. A 3 day old GL will not have any effect one way or the other. Even the GOdF has no effect on us. They are free do do as they wish, and god speed to them.
quote
ReplyDeleteIt's things like this that make me not want to trust you or Theron. Both of you seem to have some hidden agenda.
end quote
If my adgenda as you call it is hidden, I must sure have a funny way of showing it, I post under my name, I freely tell of what grand lodge I belong.
Seams to me it is others that have the hidden adgenda hidding behind screen names not telling of their locations etc...
I am open and honest, and perhaps in todays world that might seem strange when others are used to lies and threats and falsehoods.
Anagram,
ReplyDeleteI see no evidence that either of these posts came from GOUSA Masons.
Just from reading the many Masonic forums around the net I have discovered quite a few Masons that are not happy with the present Grand Lodge.
It is obvious that the GO Masons disagree with you in many ways but so far I've only seen the guys from Euclid Lodge comment. Their comments have been respectful and interesting.
Gregg,
ReplyDeleteMy research has revealed that the Grand Orient Masons in France and America are very secretive. They don't wear Masonic rings or make themselves known. Even their lodges are secret and the address is only give to members.
I actually find that to be very noble. They're not trying to be show offs by parading through the streets wearing those cone shaped red hats.
I'm beginning to wonder if part of the problem between you and them is communication and culture. It seems you don't understand them and there way of doing things.
You seem angry and upset with me. Please don't be. I'm just trying to objectively understand the differences while filtering out the spin.
quote
ReplyDeleteAnagram,
I see no evidence that either of these posts came from GOUSA Masons.
Just from reading the many Masonic forums around the net I have discovered quite a few Masons that are not happy with the present Grand Lodge.
It is obvious that the GO Masons disagree with you in many ways but so far I've only seen the guys from Euclid Lodge comment. Their comments have been respectful and interesting.
end quote
quote
I'm just trying to objectively understand the differences while filtering out the spin.
end quote
ok.... come on, you have to be pullng my leg here, you say your want to be open and honest.
you can't honestly say you don't belive that these quotes came from anyone other than the group that pulled away? Even hiding behind anonomous posts and screen names their words should tell you who they are...
As I said before, I am not selling anything, I am giving you a perspective to view what your being told.
Or you can simply drink the coolaid your being offered, the choice is yours, and may you be happy with whatever choice you make.
quote
ReplyDeleteA reasonable person will always remain silent on issues such as this until all of the facts are available.
end quote
Oh yea, I can't let this one go by either. A man of integrety will speak up when he sees injustice being done.
to paraphrase
All that is required for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing
And there is the one about
I was silent when they came to get the jews because I was not jewish, I was silent when they came for the gypsies becuase I was not a gypsie and so on... in the end, there is no one to help you when they come for you if your not willing to stand up for what is right even if it doesn't effect you personnally.
Gregg,
ReplyDeleteI find these to be very interesting quotes coming from you.
What did you do when the Grand Lodge Masons in Georgia were expelled? What have you done to help aid the Grand Master in West Virginia? Yes, I read your comments on the forums and said there was nothing you could do as a California Mason.
Why is it that a California Mason can't help Masons in Georgia and West Virginia, but he can attack Masons in Ohio, even in the absence of all the facts pertaining to the issue?
Again, I see a politically motivated agenda here. What's behind this? Who are you trying to protect? What are your reasons?
"Yes, the G.O. of France was formed in 1733. Our tradition was formed in 1717 on June 24th at the Goose and Gridiron Club in London when three Masonic lodges came together to form the United Grand Lodge of England. We are proud of our heritage..." anagram
ReplyDeleteanagram,
Your tradition and theirs has the same origin. Both were started by the same Grand Lodge in 1717. The Grand Orient of France was started in 1733 by the Grand Lodge of England. Both are proud of the same tradition but differ as to exactly what that tradition is.
I just ordered a book recommended to me by Margaret Jacob that explains it in detail. I look forward to having a better understanding in the near future.
Gregg,
ReplyDeleteI'm not a fan of Kool-Aid, and that's why I'm asking the hard questions and making decisions based on the facts, not subjective opinions or spin.
quote
ReplyDeleteWhy is it that a California Mason can't help Masons in Georgia and West Virginia, but he can attack Masons in Ohio, even in the absence of all the facts pertaining to the issue?
end quote
I can and do the same thing with the GL of GA, the GL of WV, and the masons in Ohio. I voice my opinion.
the GL's of GA and WV should not be allowed to remove a brother with out a trial, it is wrong plain and simple. Just as it is wrong for the "brothers" in OH to attempt to steal something that is not rightfully theres. I am not a member of either of these 3 jurisdictions. And no I can not do anything about either of the three cases personally except to comment on the wrongness of all 3.
quote
ReplyDeleteGregg,
I'm not a fan of Kool-Aid, and that's why I'm asking the hard questions and making decisions based on the facts, not subjective opinions or spin.
end quote
Then here is a simple suggestion, go visit your local lodge and talk to the brothers that are members there. don't rely on anything you see or read here, see what you see in real life.
Gregg,
ReplyDeleteI'm glad to see that you are willing to view all these issues in the same way. It demonstrates a level of objectivity on your part. I would, however, point out to you that there isn't enough facts available to make any reasonable judgment about the Halcyon situation. I've read through all of the available material and not much can be concluded from it other than it can't be a criminal action or the police would have been contacted. It appears to be a property dispute, and that type of issue requires more than just speculation to resolve.
I would like to visit one of your lodges but you told me that I would be rejected out of hand because of my intention to try both systems. An objective opinion of the two can only be formed if both are open to be experienced. If your lodges are closed to this then it is reasonable to assume that they have something to hide. If they were being honest and upfront they would be open to allowing people to make their own choices.
It seems that this is motivated by an attempt on the part of your Grand Lodge to stop the flow of accurate information through your organization. This is, in my opinion, a very dangerous method of operation. Your Masons would have a very one sided perspective of things, while the GO Masons would have a more global and realistic perspective.
I am open to experiencing your system and deciding for myself, if that is possible. I will not, however, give up the opportunity to experience the many other forms of Masonry available just to experience yours.
It's a big world and want to experience all of it that I can.
Objective,
ReplyDeleteI think by Goofus, he meant "Grand Orient of the United States", appropriately abbreviated as GOOFUS.
That would be incorrect because it is "Grand Orient of the United States of America" which would be either GOoftheUSA or GOUSA.
ReplyDeleteObjective,
ReplyDeleteYou can go and vist the lodges of the MS, you just can't sit in one until your a brother. I don't think you'll find that any different in the GOofUSA. In all of masonry the lodges are tyled and only brothers can gain admision into a tyled lodge.
They can surely tell you you can belong to both, because they know the reality is that you can't. You can't serve to masters.
As I said, do as you feel, there are somewhere on the nieghborhood of 4M mainstream masons, about 2M of them in the US, I am very certain that the GOdF comes no were close to that.
As I said, go visit your lodge in your area, meet with the brothers of the lodge, don't base you opinions on what you read on the net, it is a very loopsided view of reality.
Objective,
ReplyDeleteMuch has been said so far about the ability to travel and sit in other lodges. For me, joining a lodge wasn't so much about being about to find fellowship, it was more about finding a group of like minded men to surround myself with and learn from. It was about personal growth and learning. What are you looking for? Keep that in mind when making your decision.
Tony
Euclid Lodge
"This is an abuse of the oath and obligation by the Grand Masters. I will no longer obey anything without justification."
ReplyDeleteCouldn't agree more. Just because someone is a Grand Officer does not relieve them of their responsibilities to act as their oaths suggest. Apparently, some people feel the GL is justified:
"Glory to Eve who disobeyed the rules and ate the fruit of knowledge." Ergo, Glory to the Grand Master who broke the rules of his oath, right? I disagree, but to each their own opinion.
"I see no evidence that either of these posts came from GOUSA Masons."
ReplyDeleteI respectfully submit that you are not likely to find any indication that I claimed they did. I only claimed that they came from the 'other side'. There is neither any indication that they did not come from G.O. members, either. It seems more reasonable an assumption that they originated there, or at least from the supporters.
Peace out.
From the GLdF's website
ReplyDeleteQuote
In August 2000 The Grand Orient de France had a total number of 41000 members spread out over 17 regions in which there are almost 950 Lodges both in France itself and its overseas territories. All French departments are covered. In addition there also many Lodges abroad which stand for Liberal Freemasonry.
Introduction
Its Ideas
Its working methods
The way it is organised
It has signed treaties or friendly agreements with many French and foreign allegiances and will welcome as visitors to its Lodges any members of other allegiances with whom contacts have been set up, including visitors from all-female or mixed allegiances. The Grand Orient de France itself at present only recruits and affiliates men.
endquote
so as can be seen from their words, if your not in amity with them you can't go to their lodges either....
so lets toss that complaint against the MS gl's out they do the same thing.
Tony,
ReplyDeleteWhile I visit other lodges frequently, that was certainly very low on my list for joining. I joined because I greatly admired many of the philosophies of men who were Masons: Voltaire, Goethe, Washington, Rousseau, Franklin, etc. Visiting other lodges is a wonderful part, but not a necessary part. The secret happens inside and is non-transferable, IMO. It's also non-refundable. ;,)
This back-and-forth is interesting and amusing, and I hesitate to interrupt the flow here.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the accurate acronym for the Grand Orient of the United States, I suggest GOUSA. In general, prepositions (like "of") and articles (like "the") are ignored when creating acronyms or initials. Examples include "USA" itself (where's the "of" there?) and "The Man from UNCLE," which stood for United Network Command FOR Law Enforcement, I believe -- again, the preposition isn't part of the acronym. Ditto for the Federal Bureau OF Investigation and the National Aeronautics AND Space Administration. FBI. NASA. No preposition. (I know — there are exceptions, but usually only when the extra vowels help spell out a pre-planned word.)
Anagram Anonymous dragged me into this when he said, "The owner of this blog likes to cause controversy, and that is fine and good." While occasionally I do "stir the pot," mostly I just post factual news articles, toss in a few sarcastic or witty remarks, and then sit back and watch the fur fly. I provide the playground; it's you the readers (all of whom I greatly appreciate) who often interact in what is called "controversy."
As an example of me not stirring the pot, you'll notice on this very article I made no personal comments, pro or against, the Halcyon events (ditto for the article on the formation of GOUSA). In the case of GOUSA, I just posted the news, and reprinted their home page; with Halycon, I simply republished their letter. For a different tack, see how Bro. Theron Dunn jumped into the fray himself when he republished the letter from Halcyon and wrote a negative editorial about it. I'd say he and Bro. Gregg encourage as much controversy as anyone in the eMasonic world. Bro. Theron's post about GOUSA even began with the words "NEWS FLASH," obviously meant in a sarcastic way, as he's said many times the news is neither important nor of interest to him. I half-expected to see that ugly blue flashing light that Matt Drudge uses whenever he breaks what he considers a big story.
Please pardon this commercial interruption. Let the games continue!
— W.S.
"Anagram Anonymous dragged me into this when he said, "The owner of this blog likes to cause controversy, and that is fine and good."
ReplyDeleteI hope you know I mentioned you as I wanted to 'drag' you into this. You will freely admit, I'm assuming, that not all of your article choices and comments shows the fraternity in a positive light. Again, I think discussion is good about the things in our fraternity that might deserve further examination or outright change.
The issue I take isn't with the negative articles, but with the surfeit of them compared to the balanced display of the successes around the nation. To be certain, many blogs 'cover' this side of Masonry. If you wish for good news to post here, you're free to contact me. We are raising brethren like mad right now, and are going forward. The future of our Fraternity looks incredibly bright from the East of our lodge!
S&F
Brother WS the GL from which these lodges are now beholden goes by GOdF they put the d in there so by rights it is just fine to put the of in there as well...
ReplyDeleteAnd if they don't care what we think, then they shouldn't care what acronym we use either now should they.
Bro. Gregg seems overly impressed by numbers, as if somehow "might makes right."
ReplyDeleteHe wrote: "...[T]here are somewhere on the neighborhood of 4M mainstream masons, about 2M of them in the US, I am very certain that the GOdF comes no were close to that."
Estimates of the number of brothers who never attend lodge functions, but simply maintain their memberships by paying dues, run as high as 75-90%. Maybe you can attribute that to "they're busy" or "they're too old to drive," and say "but they're out there living as Masons" to wave away the reality that a helluva lot of mainstream Masons don't seem to show much interest in the organizational side of things. I know in my lodge I've never seen more than 20% of the membership show up for a meeting, or even for the raising of someone particular renowned in town. Even the 150th anniversary meeting a few weeks ago attracted very few regular members; the place was filled with wives and children and grandchildren of the loyal 15-20%, plus grand lodge officers, their "ladies," and invited civilian leaders.
Several years ago, I coordinated a mass mailing to the members of my lodge, just over 200. The letter, which included a pre-addressed, stamped envelope, simply asked the brethren to write down their correct address, phone number and email address. We received about 20 mailed responses, and maybe 10 more were handed in by regulars. An expensive campaign to keep in touch with our never-show-their-face brethren generated a 15% response rate. Yeah, mainstream Masonry is alive and well.
Bessel.org shows that in 2005 there were 1,569,812 mainstream Masons in the USA (ignoring the fact that some grand lodges count men who are members of more than one lodge more than once), and around 49,000 in Georgia. If only 10-20% are active Masons — ones who have enough interest to even show up once a year (or to send in a self-addressed questionnaire — that would mean that there are no more than 160,000-320,000 mainstream Masons "doing the work" in America, and 5,000-10,000 in Georgia. Hardly numbers Bro. Gregg should be bragging about.
— W.S.
Ok so lets see the numbers from the GOofUSA, but wait, they won't even print them or tell you them because they are so small.
ReplyDeleteWhen it was the UGLA I asked several times for a list of lodges but there were non forth coming...
Big talk with no members means nothing to me either.
From the GOdF's website, they have 41000 memembers, which means that there are more masons in the state of GA than in their GL.
Bro. A.A. said I could contact him if I wanted "good news" about Masonry to post.
ReplyDeleteBack in March of this year I posted an article inviting all Masons to send me their happy news, which I would be happy to post for them. To date, I can recall less than five such requests being made, and I believe I honored each one by posting mention of lodge functions or festivities.
The offer still holds, but sorry, Bro. A.A., I'm not gonna write you each week to ask what happy news you might have for us. My email address is posted here; feel free to use it, and I'll share your happy news with other readers.
Congrats on "raising brothers like mad."
— W.S.
Bro. Gregg,
ReplyDeleteOf course GOUSA's numbers are small. So what? They're new. And they're growing. Do you make fun of a baby because it only has a few candles on its birthday cake? Whether there are 10 of them or a hundred or a thousand, they are brothers who deserve to be heard, and we in the mainstream should attempt to understand why they were discouraged in mainstream Masonry.
And so what if they won't give you their stats. You're not a member, you proudly proclaim, so what business is it of yours, that they should bow to your demands?
And as for the acronym... you know you're only writing it the way you do for the effect of the word "goof." Hardly respectful or becoming of a Freemason.
— W.S.
Gregg,
ReplyDeleteThe Grand Orient of France isn't the Grand Orient of the USA. I was told that Grand Lodge Masons were welcome in GOUSA lodges, and based on what I've seen here I doubt there is any treaty between the two.
The GOUSA seems very modern and progressive when compared to other Masonic groups. It has a very American feel to it that I can really get into.
After debating with all of you today I feel I have a pretty good idea of what Grand Lodge Masonry is like, and I can't say I find it appealing. It's too closed minded and cult-like. Honestly, it's kind of weird and creepy to me.
I've reached this conclusion because the Grand Lodge Masons are not open to objective discovery or criticism. You demand loyalty without first justifying your reasoning and claims. By closing yourself off you reduce your credibility because no one can make reasonable comparisons.
I've also learned that Grand Lodge Masons can't easily leave the system without harassment about their oath and obligation. The evidence to support this view is ubiquitous in the many posts here and elsewhere (also see the poem posted yesterday).
Further, even if someone demits (dimits?) from Grand Lodge Masonry they can still be suspended or expelled at the whim of a Grand Master that claims dictatorial powers. (Justifications include expulsions in Georgia, West Virginia, and suspensions in Ohio) (Further justification can be found in the Halcyon incident. These Grand Lodge Masons quit and turned in their dues cards but were suspended even after resigning from the organization.) These actions show institutionalized hubris on an unprecedented scale.
After months of investigating the Masons I have concluded that the Grand Lodge Masons are neither honest nor upfront about membership in their organization, and that they use professional sales tactics such as bait and switch to lure people into their organization.
As a journalist I find all of this to be fascinating.
The new Grand Orient Masons are clearly a group of young cosmopolitan minded men who discovered these same facts and abandoned the Grand Lodge system.
I think the rest is pretty obvious to all involved.
Sounds good, brother W.S. I suspect I shall take you up on that offer soon. I have been reading this blog regularly for less than two weeks, and did miss the original offer, an offer I thank you for and something we should take advantage of more. I freely admit I have not read the entire history of the blog, but I do appreciate positive outlets for our fraternity. It is good to have those outlets for the negative to be discussed and improved upon.
ReplyDeleteThank you very much also for your congratulations. It has been two degrees every month on average, and I don't hope to slow down. We are planning a meeting once a month dedicated to education because we have few opportunities to dedicate to discussion of our craft and philosophies. Peace out.
S&F
objective wrote:
ReplyDelete"Your tradition and theirs has the same origin. Both were started by the same Grand Lodge in 1717. The Grand Orient of France was started in 1733 by the Grand Lodge of England. Both are proud of the same tradition but differ as to exactly what that tradition is."
All information I was aware of, but you presented it as if the G.O. was older than the U.G.L.E. If that's not what you meant, I apologize for my honest mis-interpretation of your words based on the sparse information you presented.
The G.O. did not choose to remain in agreement with the U.G.L.E., and that is what caused the schism. Who is right or who is wrong remains, obviously, the subject of debate. Peace out.
objective wrote:
ReplyDelete"After months of investigating the Masons I have concluded that the Grand Lodge Masons are neither honest nor upfront about membership in their organization, and that they use professional sales tactics such as bait and switch to lure people into their organization."
When talking to a prospective brother the question of numbers rarely comes up. We discuss the Masonic values and lessons, not numbers. I know of very few brethren who entered a lodge because of any sales-pitch about numbers. The fact that the fraternity has traditionally *not* used 'professional' sales tactics is part of the reason why it has declined over the years. Of course, we are trying to convince good men to become Masons, just as the G.O. is trying to convince men to join their masculine order. Advertising is not evil, although the regular GLs move on advertising ideas reluctantly. Peace out.
Well,I belive that the GOofUSA is a bit more tied to the GOdF, and their rules then you realize. But ask and see if they are not required. But it doesn't matter because no MS mason that wishes to remain so will be visiting their lodges, and none of them will be visting any MS lodges, so it is really a moot point anyway.
ReplyDeletequote
After debating with all of you today I feel I have a pretty good idea of what Grand Lodge Masonry is like, and I can't say I find it appealing. It's too closed minded and cult-like. Honestly, it's kind of weird and creepy to me.
end quote
If you feel that in an exhange of a dozen posts between you and me you can determine what mainstream masonry is about, then.... well I just don't know what to say with out being offensive. Do some more homework.
Also,
ReplyDeleteI am not trying to sell you anything, it makes me no difference what you decide. I am just trying to point out to you that there is a lot more to masonry that what you apear to realize, and it aslo apears that you have drank the coolaid so As I have said numerous times
I wish you all the best on your journey no matter what you decide.
You might want to make sure you talk to Br Brandt and Brother David Cooksky, both of them were regular masons that have left and are practicing masonry outside of the MS system. Both of them are very level headed and have my complete respect. Get their perspectives on the pros and cons.
Gregg,
ReplyDeleteDid you ever stop to consider that you may be blinded to the reality of the situation by the Kool-aid you drank?
I'm not saying this as a rebuttal, but in hopes that you may step back and evaluate what you've been saying. You come across like a person who has been brainwashed by a cult.
When other intelligent and reasonable men present alternatives to your perspectives, and you defend your position regardless of the objective facts, its time to step back and take a deep breath.
quote
ReplyDeleteDid you ever stop to consider that you may be blinded to the reality of the situation by the Kool-aid you drank?
I'm not saying this as a rebuttal, but in hopes that you may step back and evaluate what you've been saying. You come across like a person who has been brainwashed by a cult.
When other intelligent and reasonable men present alternatives to your perspectives, and you defend your position regardless of the objective facts, its time to step back and take a deep breath.
end quote
no not really, If you go read my posts at LRUS you see a vast amount of times where I have said that there are problems in the MS system. I don't have my head in the sand, but I also don't live in a fantasy world that some, and it is only some, of these GOofUSA people live in.
Gregg,
ReplyDeleteI think there are two fantasies at work here. You fantasize about saving your form of Freemasonry. The GOUSA brothers fantasize about a Utopian brotherhood of man.
You want to save an aging institution while they want to save mankind.
From my perspective their fantasy has more merit than yours, and may be more beneficial to Masons and non-Masons alike. It's a fantasy many people can buy into because they want to believe it's possible.
Saving an aging institution from financial ruin just doesn't have the same appeal as a brotherhood of all humanity. I think that's why you guys have to try to sell your idea so hard. Everyone wants to be a part of world peace, but no one cares about a dying social fraternity.
Do you get where I'm coming from?
I see where you are coming from and where you are WAY off base, Objective. A lodge is unequivocally NOT the money, or the lodge hall. Masonry would be just as strong in a garage with dedicated brethren wearing paper aprons and using wrenches as gavels and pistons as columns. I would be just as happy and honored to sit in a lodge with those brethren as any tuxedo-wearing, bejeweled lodge in existence. Yes, we try to hold onto and nurture our assets as Halcyon has attempted to do with their building. Is that a negative action? Done properly, I believe we should protect our assets (pun).
ReplyDeleteYes, I believe in a Utopian future. I believe mankind can and WILL do it, and I believe that future will be fomented in part by the Masons and in part by all people dedicated to a better world. It cannot, CANNOT be done done without dedication.
A Utopia necessarily must recognize the individual as the primary motivating force of cooperation amongst mankind. The particulars of Utopian philosophy aside, and this comes from a man that has a Saint's metal of the coiner of the term hanging by my computer, it will take all kinds of individuals. It will take Masons and Co-Masons and Brownie Scouts and 4-H members. Masonry carries the motivation into the future until all mankind can discover it for themselves.
In Freemasonry, we all recognize those we can best work with. We offer NOTHING that is not already in your possession. The G.O. does not offer that, nor Co-Masonry, nor religion, nor government, nor any other construction of man. Masonry can give you the tools to find what we offer, but we cannot give you what we offer. Every person finds that for themselves, if they find it at all. Your error here is that we as Freemasons are resting on the laurels and edifices of dead men. This is not true.
We are thankful for what those who came before have left us, and use the treasures wisely. We ARE moving forward into the future. We ARE improving ourselves; in do doing we improve our world. Yes, there are brethren that are old and tired. If they are our brothers, we want to respect what they leave us and not leave them behind. As brethren we remember our past and travel forward into a new future.
You can think I'm lying or not. You can think I'm over-zealous or advertising. You can think I'm trying to hard-sell you. I can't stop your opinions or actions nor do I wish to. Even if you think that, you can still consider the words rationally. You are free to think what you wish, but approach it with careful consideration. No Mason takes their oaths lightly. If that frightens you, that is your prerogative. I hope you can take these words and consider them, as they ARE from the heart.
Objective, you have drank the cool aid already... Big words little backing.... but i wish you well and will withdraw since you really don't give a crap what I have to say anyway you have already made up your mind.
ReplyDeleteGodspeed to you.
Well, it would appear that the real Halcyon lodge is alive and meeting at the Cleveland Masonic center until such time as the temple can be restored to it's rightful owners.
ReplyDeleteIt is good that the band of rouges could not shut down a lodge without the consent of the bretheren.
Brothers;
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, it was pointed out to me by Br. Widow's Son that noting the Grand Orient of the USA as GOOfUS was... unmasonic. He was right. I was trying to make a point to Brad Cofield who was posting about the GO as GOdUS. I changed the acronym on my blog, and now, until someone decides on the appropriate acronym
GOotUSA, GOUSA, GOoUSA
However, to claim that my opinions are spin and propaganda is just silly. What I post is my opinion, and there is no hidden agenda. What I think, I write. I think the Grand Orient of the USA is a waste of time, founded upon a falsehood and will likley have no better success than the UGLoA upon which it is founded.
Now, as to my opinions of the ex members of Halcyon: I based my opinions on what THEY have claimed, things Jeff Peace himself has written to me or communicated to me via phone. Recently, my post about Halcyon absconding with the assets of the lodge are based on the publicly posted letter from Mr. Ken Miller, ex master of Halcyon Lodge.
read it for yourself here: http://www.halcyontemple.org/pdf/member%20letter%20final.pdf
That letter notes that they did not give the rest of the brethren of Halcyon Lodge due and timely notice of such a vote. They held it immediately after the GM told them they had to return the building to the lodge, as required by the bylaws and constitution of the Grand Lodge of Ohio... which they are bound to obey as their fiduciary responsibility to the lodge.
Further, the law of the state of Ohio has dealt with situations just like this at least three times in the past hundred plus years, and has ALWAYS ruled in favor of the Grand Lodge in having the assets of the lodge returned to the lodge/grand lodge.
So, while you may like to bash me because you do not like my opinions, it is not masonic. I have not leapt to conclusions, I have listened to the claims of Mr. Tom Coste, Mr. Ken Miller, to Mr. Jeff Peace and others who seem to speak often on those issues.
So, deal with the facts, anonymous, not your wishful thinking about what you hope the situation might or should be... the reality is these men, who moved the assets to the "charity" are likely about to face criminal charges on top of no longer being masons, AND the assets will, by court order, following precedent and Ohio state law, be moved BACK to Halcyon Lodge.
Oh, and by the way, the Grand Master of Ohio refused the illegal surrender of the charter, and has reconstituted Halcyon Lodge.
Halcyon #2 is but a pale shadow of the real Halcyon Lodge, and as soon as the assets of the lodge are returned, they will not even be that...
more's the pity... and these men are the backbone of the Grand Orient of the United States.
Halcyon 498 still exists, huh.
ReplyDeletewhy, because the GM said so?
there is not 1 498 member as an officer. Not 1 elected 498 member as an officer.
it is a puppet lodge, not a real one.
I'm glad that they will meet in the scottish rite headquarters, that was what they wanted all along, sell the building, take the assets, and move to the scottish rite temple............
SELL the beautiful Temple, that was all they ever wanted to do..
How dare young men revive that temple, fix it up and secure for the future?
It was supposed to be sold and no more Freemasonry to be practiced within the walls!
I am soooo glad, theron, that you are for th edestruction of another Masonic Historic Temple!
You should take pride in that FACT!
cheerleading for the destruction of the temple! that is what masonry is about!
GL reps are already talking about selling the Temple when they get it back! so, keep cheering for the destruction of a beautiful, historic temple!
hip hip hooray, theron... another temple is being sought after to destroy!
hip hip hooray for the visionaries in the GL!
ego's rule and the lust for money is second!
hip hip hooray
quote
ReplyDeleteHalcyon 498 still exists, huh.
why, because the GM said so?
there is not 1 498 member as an officer. Not 1 elected 498 member as an officer.
it is a puppet lodge, not a real one.
end quote
Nope because it is the right and proper thing to do. If you had asked the bretheren of the lodge if they wanted to fold in a legitimate vote, the GM wouldn't have had to be involved in that in the first place.
quote
GL reps are already talking about selling the Temple when they get it back! so, keep cheering for the destruction of a beautiful, historic temple!
end quote
Well when the rightful owners get it back they can do as they want with it. If you had cared that much you should have stayed around and fought for it instead of trying to steal it.
2 Bowl Cain
ReplyDeleteIt was pointed out today that men of intellect discuss ideas, and men of emotion discuss other people. You lay a lot of emotion out regarding my opinion of the situation at Halcyon. Let me see if I can discuss a few ideas with you... feel up to it?
The BUILDING, the Temple, in which Halcyon Lodge met belongs to the Halcyon #498, not to the men who are part of the lodge. Let me repeat the last line, because it is an important idea: the building belongs to the lodge, not the men who are members OF the lodge.
I am sure that the upgrades and improvements to the building were awesome. I am sure that the efforts they made toward reaching out to the community using that resource, the building, was awesome as well.
I am sure the money and effort they poured into the building was stupendous, and I have followed their efforts with great interest and appreciation. The problem is, NONE of that makes the building THEIR property.
They could have raised millions and spent tens of thousands of man hours on the building, but NONE of that made it THEIR property. The building belongs to Halcyon Lodge #498, NOT to any man or group of men... it is the cumulative (!!) result of years of work and money.
Now, regardless of whether or not the members of Halcyon Lodge wanted to sell the building, take the money from it and rent somewhere else, no one is entitled to steal it or transfer it for their own designs. No matter how you justify it, if the asset does not stay with Halcyon #498, unless it is PURCHASED above board and through legal means, taking it is not legal... not matter how they dress up the taking.
And if Halcyon is today only a shell, well, there are a group of men who are no longer masons who we can look to directly as being responsible for gutting the lodge. Thank g-d they chose to quit freemasonry!
There is no lodge that I know of that could have its whole officer corp wiped out and reconstitute itself without some serious effort. Not one.
Given the issues at hand, it would be intellectual dishonesty to think that the Grand Master did not have other plans than simply the reconstituting of an old lodge. Fact is, the Grand Master has a fiduciary responsibility to the Grand Lodge to make sure the assets of the lodge are not absconded with by anyone.
The officers of Halcyon #498 had a fiduciary responsibility to take care of the building and other assets. When they restored the building, they were fulfilling that responsibility. When they "donated" the building to the charity they created "Halcyon Charities", they violated the law, the constitution of the Grand Lodge of Ohio, and the bylaws of the lodge.
Now it is the fiduciary responsibility of the Grand Master to recover those assets and set things to right. It is ALSO the duty of the grand master to aid and assist the lodge in any way he can.
It is the most brotherly action he is taking, and frankly, it is the brotherly thing the brothers who are now serving as officers of Halcyon #498 are doing. Hopefully, the Grand Master, with the assistance of these other brothers, can repair the willful damage the renegades created.
Not the least of which would be the recovery of the building. And no, I do not want to see the building destroyed. I would rather have seen the men who were restoring it have worked within the rules to continue their good works. It seems, however, given the tone I have read from the ex-brothers of that lodge, that it wasn't about the building, it was about them.
They seem to feel that they have a right to that building, to take it and use it as they will. Problem is, that is not the freemasonry I know and love. Nor is taking an immediate vote to surrender the charter without notifying all the members of the lodge, as required by the constitution and bylaws, that such a vote will be taken.
I admired the work they were doing on the building and on their masonry... it was awesome. I do NOT admire the way they quit freemasonry. It was ugly, it was egotistical, and the damage they deliberately did was the very antithesis of freemasonry.
Gregg & Dunn,
ReplyDeleteYour logic seems correct to me a Masonic ________!
It really is too bad that the lodge hall will go. I don't celebrate the loss of the building or the loss of brethren. All this over a website and not wanting to live up to oaths. I understand that some might object to the oaths, but why take them at all if they meant nothing or you objected? Makes no sense.
ReplyDeleteThe rules and regulations of the Ohio GL as posted here say as much. The building goes back to the GL after the charter is returned:
***********************
Grand Lodge of F & A M Ohio Code that ALL SHOW READ:
Sec 11.09 Property Surrendered with Charter.
"When the Charter of a Lodge is arrested or surrendered, the Charter, records, and all other personal property of such Lodge strictly Masonic in character, execpting money and securities other than unpaid Grand Lodge Dues, shall be vested in The Grand Lodge, and be at its disposal."
******************
I'm no lawyer, but that's what it says to me. I don't know that I agree entirely with either side, but it seems that the GL acted within its powers, and the actions of Halcyon pretty much handed them the reins rather than putting a website on temporary sabbatical. It doesn't seem that the entire body of Halcyon members were fairly represented. As far as if either side acted Masonically, it's difficult to judge. That's up to their individual freedom of conscience.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI've heard the new "Fake 498" (re-created by the Grand Lodge of Ohio) doesn't have any original Halcyon 498 members. Not even the older members attend it. It's just a bunch of Grand Lodge of Ohio officers pretending to be Halcyon 498. Thus, it stands to reason that the new lodge isn't Halcyon but Fake 498.
ReplyDeleteI see this as an act of desperation on the part of the Grand Lodge of Ohio. They couldn't find even one old Halcyon member to help them.
It seems that the officers of the real Halcyon 498 did do what the membership wanted.
If the members of Halcyon built the building and were restoring it with their own money, I doubt any judge or jury will hand it over to those who have no rightful claim.
If any of you bothered to review the legal summary posted earlier it makes it clear that the Grand Lodge of Ohio tried to take this building away from its rightful owners several years ago, but were thwarted by legal action. Halcyon 498 then continued to operate under the Grand Lodge of Ohio until the Grand Lodge decided to take the building by force by an act of removing the rightful elected officer this November. This, however, didn’t work out as planned because they simply turned in their Charter to keep their building.
Based on this it would appear the Grand Lodge of Ohio is involved in a "land grab" of property that is not rightfully theirs.
Should the Grand Lodge of Ohio manage to get the building back and destroy it, where does that leave the inner city children that use the building for sporting and theatrical activities? Even more, what does it say about the moral conscience of Grand Lodge Masons?
When I hear people like Theron and Gregg champion the cause of men who would willfully destroy an historical building just to satisfy their vanity and ego, it illustrates to me just what kind of people we are dealing with here.
These supposed "Masons" have such a total disregard for their own history that they are not worthy of it.
There simply is no justification for the destruction of this fine old temple, other than vanity, ego and greed. The Halcyon charity preserves a historic building, and allows the Masons and community to use it. If the Grand Lodge gets it back then no longer will the Masons or he community be able to use it. Now we're beginning to see the true colors of the Grand Lodge Masons.
Objective
ReplyDeleteYou should change your blogger account name to Bias, because you have far surpassed the point of objectivity.
Another point...
Quote
"Based on this it would appear the Grand Lodge of Ohio is involved in a "land grab" of property that is not rightfully theirs."
Read the above mentioned Code of the Grand Lodge of Ohio. That is the law that the members of Halcyon had worked peacefully under and had been formed under, and which the members of Halcyon had agreed to abide by.
-freethinker
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ReplyDeleteFreethinker,
ReplyDeleteWho benefits from the temple being destroyed? You Grand Lodge guys said your Grand Lodge was taking it back because it belonged to the members not present the night the lodge was dissolved. Now, we find out that your Grand Lodge doesn't intend to give it back to these Masons either. Your Grand Lodge plans to demolish the building and keep the money from the land sale.
Let me say that again: YOUR GRAND LODGE PLANS TO DEMOLISH THE BUILDING AND KEEP THE MONEY FROM THE LAND SALE.
If you use your Masonic Code to steal the building from its rightful owners and the children who use it just to fill the coffers of your Grand Lodge then YOU ARE IMMORAL.
I thought Freemasonry was supposed to be about improving one's self through morality (or so I was told at the lodgeroomus). It looks like you need to start practicing what you preach instead of spending all your time posting to this blog.
Perhaps you should change your username to “con man”.
the building was bought and paid for by brothers that went before the attempted theieves even became members. It was owned by the lodge and the grand lodge, it is really plain and simple.
ReplyDeleteif they cared so much about it, and the kids they should have stuck around. But instead they chose to try and steal it. If anyone has to answer to the "kids" it will be the theives.
Owners of buildings sell them every day. Plain and simple.
if you can't understand that, i really don't care. At this point please go join the malcontents... perhaps you can find a jail cell next to them.
This is my last post to you period because you have drank the cool aid, and I would simply rather you didn't join my fraternity.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteObjective...oops, I mean Most High Keeper of all Bias Masonic Knowledge!
ReplyDeleteYou seem to know more about this fraternity, and the laws that keeps it standing, than the members.
First of all I am a regular mason working under the Grand Lodge of Georgia, I am not a member in Ohio, however my Grand Lodge recognizes the GL of Ohio, therefore I will defend it and all other jurisdictions of Regular Freemasonry.
There are many laws in this world, the laws of God, Nature, and Man. These laws are in effect to keep balance and peace among men, nature, and God. Without law there is chaos, therefore I will defend the laws that keep the bonds between my brethren and myself. If you do not have this wisdom of the world then I don't know how you ever made it to this blog or made it this far in life. The men that established these laws are wise men and true and lawful brethren of mine. The men who let their ego's get out of hand shouldn't have, they should have bowed to the power of their Grand Lodge in respect and brotherly love, however they didn't and now this matter must be handled in other ways.
Like I said before, Laws are in place for good reasons, if these men had obeyed them they wouldn't be having the problems they are having today.
And to finish... you seem to be too small minded to understand the principles of this world, so, like Gregg, I am done with you and your ridiculous points. Go join the rotary club, the odd fellows, or some make believe GL, or G.O. Regular Masonry has no room for men who are not willing to attempt to understand the neccesity of law and accepting instructions.
I wish that I could have put it all in a more light hearted manner, but this is a serious issue to me, because this organization means much more to me than you can ever understand.
-Freethinker
"I wish that I could have put it all in a more light hearted manner, but this is a serious issue to me, because this organization means much more to me than you can ever understand."
ReplyDeleteI repost this in agreement with the sentiment. Freemasonry is felt in the heart. Until that is accepted, no-one who is not a Mason can ever understand.
Dear Blog Readers,
ReplyDeletePlease take careful notice of how the Grand Lodge Masons avoid dealing with the moral implications of their actions. They tell you how great Grand Lodge Masonry is on the one hand while promoting immoral conduct on the other.
They seem oblivious to what they owe to their fellow man, and care more about Masonic rules than people.
What type of people would join this kind of organization?
They are trying to accomplish a land grab to steal what is not theirs, and then kick the children of Ohio City out of the building so that they can sell it and keep the money.
What kind of men would do something so evil?
Dear Blog readers...
ReplyDeleteBy the logic just presented, It would be ok for me to come take your house, so long as I am going to be giving it to the "kids" to use...
You know, the more I read, the more I think that Objective is simply a shill name for one of the attempted theives, trying to justify their unjustifiable actions.
"When the Charter of a Lodge is arrested or surrendered, the Charter, records, and all other personal property of such Lodge strictly Masonic in character, execpting money and securities other than unpaid Grand Lodge Dues, shall be vested in The Grand Lodge, and be at its disposal."
ReplyDeletedid I miss something?
execpting money and securities ?
Gregg,
ReplyDeleteHow truly pitiful...
Your Grand Lodge is NOT the rightful owner: the members are the rightful owners. Your Grand Lodge wants to sell the building a pocket the cash.
They are not looking out for the members of Halcyon, but themselves.
The Grand Lodge is the criminal.
quote
ReplyDeleteWhen the Charter of a Lodge is arrested or surrendered, the Charter, records, and all other personal property of such Lodge strictly Masonic in character, execpting money and securities other than unpaid Grand Lodge Dues, shall be vested in The Grand Lodge, and be at its disposal."
did I miss something?
execpting money and securities ?
end quote
Since the charter is not suspended or surrendered... this is really a moot point.
"Please take careful notice of how the Grand Lodge Masons avoid dealing with the moral implications of their actions."
ReplyDeleteWho's avoiding dealing with moral implications of 'their' actions? The only people who can deal with the moral implications of 'their' actions are GL of Ohio members (not represented here, AFAIK) and Halcyon members. Without a clear picture it is difficult to tell which one is entirely to blame here. As I've said before, it APPEARS to me that both side carry some culpability, but you're welcome to ignore that fact.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteGregg tells us that the Halcyon 498 Charter is still alive and well, or is it?
ReplyDeleteThe more I read about these Grand Lodges, the more I'm convinced that they're suffering from an institutional psychosis that affects their members.
Halcyon's elected officers and members turned in the Charter. This is an indisputable fact. The new "Fake 498" does not have one original Halcyon member as an officer, nor any original Halcyon members to attend. You can delude yourself into believing that it is the real Halcyon when in fact it is nothing more than a puppet by the same name.
Does anyone who posts here have any sense of reality, or do you just create a convenient reality based on what your Grand Lodge tells you is real?
Halcyon might have more original members if they weren't intentionally driven out by the other members by raising the dues. Dues raising is fine, but NOT for the purpose of driving out brothers that don't agree with you. I'm waiting for a member of Halcyon to deny this fact. Despite saying 'it costs money to run a lodge hall', something I agree with entirely, nobody has denied this. I ask a Halcyon member-is this or is this not true? Just be honest, or lie and say it is not.
ReplyDeleteSo let me get this right,
ReplyDeleteIf someone tells you the truth and it does not agree with your views they are a liar? Thats nice.
The members that were disinfrancished by the few brothers that were there to vote on turning in their charter are the members of Halycon lodge, not all of them were driven away by raising the dues.
ReplyDeleteWhich by the way is something that Tubalcain did proclaim at one time... was the purpose of raising the dues by the way in a particular forum.
And I am guessing that Objective is Jeff Peace... anyone else what to wager?
"When the Charter of a Lodge is arrested or surrendered, the Charter, records, and all other personal property of such Lodge strictly Masonic in character, execpting money and securities other than unpaid Grand Lodge Dues, shall be vested in The Grand Lodge, and be at its disposal."
ReplyDeleteIt seems pretty clear from an outsider.
The G.L. can have the records of the lodge and all masonic materials. Thats it.
If the lodge owns the building, that has to be considered securities or shares samething.
Oh and one more question.
what does Halcyons by-laws say about all this?
The brothers of that lodge approve lodge by-laws as well as having to have them approved by G.O..
And when can you surrender a charter for a lodge according to their masonic code? And unless you can cite verbatum from the book, keep any guessing or speculating to yourself
Sure is alot of speculation floating out there.
People should just be patient and wait for the facts and ruling to come down before throwing stones.
And for G-d's sake, stop acting like my wifes 3rd graders.
The use of the trowel was taught to all MM's that are here. Maybe you all should try using that tool.
And stop calling and accusing people of felony crimes unless you are a judge or part of a grand jury. And you call yourself Masons.
And I am talking about both sides of this horrible situation.
Thanks for your time,
Noel
Quote
ReplyDeleteCode Book of Masonic Law
ADOPTED BY
The Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons of Ohio
CHAPTER 9
TEMPLES AND FINANCING THEREOF
Sec. 9.06 No Temple Company, Temple Association, or other Temple operating group of which any Lodge is the owner, or of which any Lodge is a member or stockholder, or of which membership, stockholding or ownership is predicated on membership in a Lodge, or which is proposed to be formed by a Lodge or any members therof (solely or in concert with others) shall adopt, amend, revoke, or otherwise alter its Articles of Incorporation or Association, Constitution, Code of Regulations, By-Laws, or other body of governing rules without first obtaining the written approval and consent of the Temple Committee of The Grand Lodge and the Grand Master.
End Quote
Noel,
since this was not done it was in ilegal transfer.... that's not my words, that is the code book of OH.
Also, in order to change your bylaws the brethern must be notified, by the former Masters own statment that was not done. Which means that the vote to turn in their charter was not valid.
Those are facts not my opinion.
One more thing,people are saying they stole the lodge by giving to charity.
ReplyDeleteWhat is the limit that a lodge can gift to charity?
And what is their prcedure, both Lodge by-laws and The code book?
If the same gift was given to the special olympics ,the Shrine hospital or to the Ronald Mcdonald house. Would that have been ok?
Thanks again
Noel
CHAPTER 9
ReplyDeleteTEMPLES AND FINANCING THEREOF
Sec. 9.06 No Temple Company, Temple Association, or other Temple operating group of which any Lodge is the owner, or of which any Lodge is a member or stockholder, or of which membership, stockholding or ownership is predicated on membership in a Lodge, or which is proposed to be formed by a Lodge or any members therof (solely or in concert with others) shall adopt, amend, revoke, or otherwise alter its Articles of Incorporation or Association, Constitution, Code of Regulations, By-Laws, or other body of governing rules without first obtaining the written approval and consent of the Temple Committee of The Grand Lodge and the Grand Master.
End Quote
Who said they did that?
How do you know what they changed or didn't change.
Once again my brother you are speculating and i don't think you even realize it.
Can you cite me there articles of corp. before and after such allegid
rule breaking was done?
Not trying to be a ball buster, but come on.
99% of the people here have know idea what is going on so just wait till the final descision has been reached.
I feel your outrage Greg,
But just step back and look in the mirror and ask yourself, Am I the one to judge? I hope the answere would be no.
Can't you see they are baiting you with a response everytime.
They are the only ones getting a kick out of you not keeping your passions in due bounds and watching you act childish just the way they do Brother.
Just whispering
Noel
Some people just will never get it.
ReplyDeleteFacts, all I want are facts not your interpetation just facts.
Are you a member of said Lodge or Grand Lodge Brother Greg?
If not, it is more speculation and hearsay.
Spend some time with the family or go to the park, You are way to infatuated with this. If you put as much energy into your family,lodge or something positve as you do this, I bet you would be one heck of a family man or a community leader, unless this is all you have for entertainment. And if thats the case, I don't know what to say but good luck.
In the end it does not matter what any of us think. We just have to wait for the outcome like it or not.
Fraternaly,
Noel
bro AA asks:"Halcyon might have more original members if they weren't intentionally driven out by the other members by raising the dues. Dues raising is fine, but NOT for the purpose of driving out brothers that don't agree with you. I'm waiting for a member of Halcyon to deny this fact. Despite saying 'it costs money to run a lodge hall', something I agree with entirely, nobody has denied this. I ask a Halcyon member-is this or is this not true? Just be honest, or lie and say it is not."
ReplyDeleteWhen it was $35/yr, 5-10% attendance if lucky.
When the dust settled, at least 5 masonic bodies moved out of the Temple.
The cost of running,maintaining and rehabbing fell solely on the young men of Halcyon.
No renters meant no revenue.
No revenue from the masonic community meant self-reliance.
raising dues was a business decision.
The discussion to raise dues was tabled and discussed over many meetings in the presence of a ddgm.
So, limited on revenue streams, high gas bills and property taxes, men and masons viewed the situation from a business perspective for everyones survival.
Intake vs. Outgoing. Math.
Selling and destruction was not in the plan.
Hard work, dedication and business savvy along with a solid network within the city, meant a solid flow of candidates, rejuvinating a section of the community and securing the future of this whole ideal.
Period.
Nothing Nefarious.
quote
ReplyDeleteSome people just will never get it.
Facts, all I want are facts not your interpetation just facts.
Are you a member of said Lodge or Grand Lodge Brother Greg?
If not, it is more speculation and hearsay.
Spend some time with the family or go to the park, You are way to infatuated with this. If you put as much energy into your family,lodge or something positve as you do this, I bet you would be one heck of a family man or a community leader, unless this is all you have for entertainment. And if thats the case, I don't know what to say but good luck.
In the end it does not matter what any of us think. We just have to wait for the outcome like it or not.
Fraternaly,
Noel
End quote
So because you don't like it when I post facts, you then resort to personal attacks upon me?
Please share with us your lodge and Grand Lodge. Or are you simply another shill name for one of these former brothers.
TO: The Master, Wardens and Brethren of Halcyon Lodge
ReplyDeleteBrethren,
I have been away from home for the past few months and have returned to see so many wonderful things happening in Freemasonry. Please allow me to offer you some belated words of congratulation on choosing intellectual and spiritual freedom over the collectivist mentality that you suffered under. Freedom is never free but is an independent act of volition made by men who understand their own personal value as individuals. The very idea of real freedom is frightening to those who have never known it, and it takes real courage to free one’s self from the mindless power of the collective.
I am so very fortunate to have been associated with brothers like Brandt Smith, Jeff Peace and Chris Michalek. They showed me a better way of being – the true way of being – the only way of being. I found in myself the courage to be what I had always been but was too afraid to be. Now I’m finishing my degree and making my own life in the way I want it to be. My life is an act of my own volition, and not the result of the actions of others. This is the most powerful idea of Freemasonry. Hiram Abiff is the ideal man; the Master of his own destiny!
It is my hope that the actions you have taken will help to free the minds of others and help pave the way to a future of enlightenment and reason.
Fraternally,
Howard Roark
wow,
ReplyDeleteI am impressed a free man, that is afraid to post his real name...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteFree men are free to do as they wish in the same way as your associates:
ReplyDeleteAnagramAnonymous
Freethinker357
Prometheus
ICHermes
I choose to remain anonymous because I have witnessed how you and others have abused the names of those who have openly decided not to be a part of your collectivist Freemasonry.
I know why you, Theron and Manny are posting here. It’s to set an example for others who want to leave but fear the reprisal from people such as you.
Fear is a powerful motivating force and it can render people as slaves to your will. There is nothing "free" in that kind of Masonry.
There is another way to deal with the promoters of fear: act in secret. Freemasonry began as a secret society, and in many places around the world it remains so because Masons fear the church and/or state. Here in America Masons fear other Masons.
I advise all my brothers to remain anonymous and return to the secrecy necessary for their spiritual and intellectual freedom.
I don't know about the first 3 on your list, all I have seen of them is their posts here. But IC is a lot of places, and he has many times openly given his name, lodge, and Grand lodge.
ReplyDeleteAnd yet again you show that when you have no validity to your ideas, you must resort to name calling. I am most impressed.
And those with the strenght of their convictions need not hide behind anonomous names....
You talk about starting a revolution, well the men that started the greast one, signed their real names to a piece of paper and sent it off to the king.
And I can't speak for the others, but the only reason I post here is to be a voice of reason, to off set the vitorol and hate I see posted here.
For a "group" that preaches about how they want a brotherhood of man, to see the hate spewed is incredible.
Here is a suggestion, talk to Br. Brandt, who by the way posts his real name, talk to Br. Cookskey, who again posts his real name.
Those brothers get it, they have chosen a different path, and no one disputes thier right or intentions. They are treated with respect where ever they go, because the deserve it.. You obviously don't want to listen to a mainstream mason, so go ask for guidence from those that have chosen to leave with honor and dignaty...
I guess people leave in different ways but they are all working together as one.
ReplyDeleteYou have no real idea of what is happening all around you.
Who is John Galt?
Dear Howard,
ReplyDeleteMy name is Cory Lowe, I am a member of John W. Akin Lodge #537 (a regular lodge), working under the jurisdiction of the Grand Lodge of Georgia (a regular Grand Lodge). That is all in the title of my blogger name by the way. There are also others who stay true to regular masonry and list their names and lodges and are not afraid. Worshipful Brother Theron Dunn, Worshipful Brother Manny Blanco, and many others. And while I do admire your ability to eloquently write a message (by the way you are very well spoken) I do not and never will agree with your stance. I have spoken much on here and everyone knows my views on this subject. I will stand by my Grand Lodge, because I respect my brethren and I am willing to receive instruction.
-Cory
Bro. Greg
ReplyDeleteMaybe you can enlighten us all, the great knower of everything.
You attack those brothers on a daily basis, but when a question is asked of you about ALL the facts (Ohio law, Masonic law and lodge by-laws) you say you are being attacked.
Thats not the case. I am new to this blog and you seem to have all the answers, thats all.
When you can give me a profesional answere I will be glad to listen, but until then you are still just speculating and that does knowone any good.
Are you involved with this and know ALL the facts? Are you a member of said lodge or their grand lodge?
If not, why the constant speculation. Oh because it is what I heard or read.
Believe everything you hear or read, that will get you far in life.
You just can't seem to understand is that they are just pushing your buttons for entertainment, and they have pushed the right ones.
I find it amusing how adults act let alone Masons.
And both sides have acted like children.
What would Jesus do? Throw the first stone? I think he would wait till ALL the facts come out, and then after time to think about it he would make his judgement.
And then he would forgive them.
Happy Holidays
Noel
I forgot my password since I am new to this forum, thats why the name change.
ReplyDeleteI have seen the most disgusting behavior here. Knock it off. Take a break from your keyboards. Just stop this petty bickering. You are all better than this. Stop. None of this is worth the venom being spewed here. Stop.
ReplyDeleteBrandt
Freethinker,
ReplyDeleteYou're an alright dude in my book but perhaps a little naive. I admire your willingness to do defend your brothers and try to do what's right. Your young and idealistic, and that's not a bad place to be.
Let me help you see through the fog a little. At first I didn't understand the issue either but have since gained a much deeper understanding.
The Grand Lodge of Ohio has been trying to take this building away from the lodge members for several years now. They had attorneys go over this stuff back then and it was decided that the temple rightfully belonged to Halcyon.
About a month ago the Grand Lodge decided to do an end run by taking over the lodge and then gift the building to themselves. The officers of the lodge turned in the charter to stop this from happening.
This is a good old fashioned land grab for the money. The Grand Lodge wants to sell the property and pocket the cash.
Free-ThinkerGA537 said...
ReplyDelete"Objective You should change your blogger account name to Bias, because you have far surpassed the point of objectivity."
DAMN RIGHT!
FREE-THINKERGA537 I think alike!
DOES THE STATE OF GA TAKE FOLKS LIKE ME?
M.A.
I believe this letter was written after the fact. The Brethren did not have a choice or a say in it. Only those that were part of this select group made the choice and only after being Coached by The Pied Piper of Bogus Masonry. I also believe that the Lodge had this man speak at a function after he had already been expelled from his Mainstream Grand Lodge. He saw an opportunity and he took it. Bad associations spoil useful habit. I am sorry but that is what appears to have happened. The courts will give the property back in time. These men and GOUSA should be ashamed of themselves for doing the terrbile deeds that they have done and for allowing a Lodge with it's propeties to fall under it's banner knowing nothing belongs to them.
ReplyDeleteSincerely,
Manny Blanco,PM
Moreno Valley Masonic Lodge # 804
Moreno Valley, CA
Grand Lodge of CA