Bro. Greg Stewart at the Masonic Traveler blog and webmaster of FreemasonInformation.com has given an interview to an anti-Masonic website. Check out the podcast.
Good job, Bro. Greg!
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"Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instructions in religion. ... This is the true religion revealed to the ancient patriarchs; which Masonry has taught for many centuries, and which it will continue to teach as long as time endures." Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma, pg. 213
ReplyDelete"(Masonry) is the universal, eternal, immutable religion, such as God planted it in the heart of universal humanity. ... The ministers of this religion are all Masons who comprehend it." Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma, pg. 219
Albert Pike was nothing if not inconsistent, but he was real clear about the 'religion' of Masonry. It's restated even today, that Masonry is not "a religion" but "religion." You can't split that hair.
I assume you are Scottish Rite (SJ); if not, you've just confirmed the importance of Pike among Masons in general. Too many Masons have been proclaiming that Pike means nothing to them, that he is merely limited to the SRSJ. If you are not part of that group, you are swimming against the tide, my friend. Either that or they are lying and you are correct.
You say you understand a religion to offer a plan of salvation. So do I:
"The Lamb has in all ages been deemed an emblem of innocence. The lambskin is therefore to remind you of that purity of life and rectitude of conduct which is so essentially necessary to your gaining admission to that Celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides." ('Nevada Masonic Monitor, First Degree - Entered Apprentice', p. 14); and,
"The Master Mason represents man, when youth, manhood, old age, and life itself have passed away as fleeting shadows, yet raised from the grave of iniquity, and quickened into another and a better existence. By its legend and all its ritual, it is implied that we have been redeemed from the death of sin and the sepulchre of pollution." ('Nevada Masonic Monitor, Third Degree - Master Mason', pp. 2&3); and
". .the drama of Hiram the Builder is a symbol of redemption - - and redemption is the central theme of this degree. 'Raised from a dead level to a living perpendicular' suggests far more than a physical accomplishment." ('Officers Manual of Lodge Organization and Operation' - Grand Lodge of Nevada)
Lest there be any doubt as to the redemption referred to here:
"The important part of the degree is to symbolize the great doctrines of the resurrection of the body and the immortality of the soul; and hence it has been remarked by a learned writer of our Order that 'the Master Mason represents a man saved from the grave of iniquity, and raised to the faith of salvation.." ('North Carolina Lodge Manual', p. 53)
In spite of this, regarding a plan of salvation, you say, "Masonry does not do that." Sure it does. I just documented it for you.
Boy I'am sure glad I got an earful from the great Masonic Traveler, Tom, and Widow.
Jean
wow, I appreciate the kudos!!!
ReplyDeleteI'm blushing that I gave an ear-full and seemed to already ruffle the feathers of more anti's.
I mentioned this in another blog response today, but it probably warrants being posted somewhere again.
Can Masonry be a "religion", and I think the answer is yes. Will it suffice your need for salvation, I think you need to ask your faith that question.
At Jean's church, they whine about Pike right up until they bring out the snakes. YEE-HAW!!!
ReplyDeleteOh how I love this blog!
ReplyDelete~Ephraim
Jean... So I lost track now, but what was your goal again? And even if you did achieve that goal, what then? What is your purpose?
Nemo go play with your dolls and let the adults talk moron. YEE-HAW.
ReplyDeleteThe quote comes from a booklet published and distributed under authority of the Grand Lodge of Nevada, 'Freemasonry - A Way Of Life'. That is a grand lodge recognized by the grand lodge of New York, as are all the other states in the U.S.
They are all teaching the same thing, and this includes the plan of salvation that you are attempting to say doesn't really say what it really says.
The lamb, in all ages, has been deemed an emblem of innocence. The lambskin was, therefore, to remind me of that purity of life and conduct so essentially necessary to my gaining admission into the Celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides. (The Standard Work and Lectures of Ancient Craft Masonry In the Jurisdiction of the Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons of the State of New York, 1960, p. 74)
The above is confirmed by a former Grand Chaplain of the Grand Lodge of New York, who is also a Past Master from that jurisdiction. He further informs me that the newly initiated Entered Apprentice hears the symbolism of the lambskin apron TWICE. He hears it once, during the presentation which follows initiation. This would be in what is referred to as the Second Section. He then hears it a second time when the Q&A session takes place. That is the reason for the "first person" type of response shown above.
In short, it IS in ritual, and it IS in lodge.
I knock the dust off my sandals and rest my case.
The Grand Lodge of Kentucky provides unmistakable evidence that Freemasonry teaches, not only that there are many different saviors for various peoples, but that Hiram Abif is considered a savior for Freemasons. The context is a discussion of various world religions. "All believed in a future life, to be attained by purification and trials; in a state or successive states of reward and punishment; and in a Mediator or Redeemer, by whom the Evil Principle was to be overcome and the Supreme Deity reconciled to His creatures. The belief was general that He was to be born of a virgin and suffer a painful death. The Hindus called him Krishna; the Chinese, Kioun-tse; the Persians, Sosiosch; the Chaldeans, Dhouvanai; the Egyptians, Horus; Plato, Love; the Scandinavians, Balder; the Christians, Jesus; Masons, Hiram."
Kentucky Monitor, pp. XIV-XV, 5th-15th editions.
First of all, let's take a look at the Worldbook Dictionary definition of allegory:
"a long and complicated story with an underlying meaning different from the surface meaning of the story itself."
Albert G. Mackey expounds upon it even further, where the Hiramic Legend is concerned:
“ . .to say something where the language is one thing and the true meaning another, exactly expresses the character of an allegory. . . Thus, the legend of the Third Degree is an allegory, evidently to be interpreted as teaching a restoration to life; and this we learn from the legend itself, without any previous understanding.” (Mackey's 'Encyclopedia of Freemasonry')
We're being told here, that there is an underlying meaning different from the surface meaning, or as Mackey puts it, "the language is one thing and the true meaning another.
So, if this is all a lie, no need zeroing in on me. Go to the source, if that is truly how you feel about it, and tell the grand lodges they are lying. Here is what the Grand Lodge of Nevada says about the meaning, and missing the meaning. First of all, from 'The Lodge System of Masonic Education':
“Here is the SUBLIME climax of the symbolic Degrees, and if a Brother misses its meaning, and sees the living, dying and “raising” of the Master only as a literal drama - designed to teach the virtues of fortitude and inflexible fidelity - he has found Light but partially. To him the Sublime Degree is no more than a theatrical play with a moral.”
This also, from Nevada:
"The tragedy of Hiram Abif is the climax of the Master Mason degree, the essence of Freemasonry, the foundation of its philosophy. To understand its symbolism is to understand Masonry; to miss its significance is to remain forever in outer darkness." ('Officers Manual of Lodge Organization and Operation' - Grand Lodge of Nevada, page 95)
They are telling you that if you miss it - and according to the other grand lodge document, you missed it - you are in outer darkness.
The Grand Lodge of Indiana tells us:
"It is safe to say that among the countless thousands who have in the past been raised to the Sublime Degree of Master Mason, no one of them realized at the time the full implications of the ceremony. This clearly would be impossible. Yet it is vitally important that the deeper meanings of this degree be understood if one is to become a Master Mason in fact as well as in name.""('The Master Mason, Book No. 4', Grand Lodge of Indiana, Committee on Masonic Education)
We're not talking about "some guy named J.D. Buck" dictating Masonic fact; we're talking about grand lodges recommending the likes of Buck, Wilmshurst, Steinmetz, Hall, Newton, and others, in order that the new Masons - and all others for that matter - will become more informed on what Masonry is truly all about. "Some guy named J.D. Buck" is most certainly recommended by the Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania.
This from Nevada: "To nurture the quest for further knowledge, many sources should be directed to the new Mason's attention. The Lodge has already made available to him a copy of the current Monitor. The Constitution, by-Laws and Regulations of the Grand Lodge of Nevada are contained in the Nevada Masonic Code, a copy of which is available in every Nevada Lodge, and the candidate should at least be made aware of its availability to him." ('Officers Manual of Lodge Organization and Operation' - Grand Lodge of Nevada, page 136); and it goes on to say: "Much about Masonry may be learned from its literature." It then goes on to give quite an extensive list of recommended materials, naming most, if not all the authors I have shown above.
Very high on most every Grand Lodge's list of recommended readings is 'The Builders', by Joseph Fort Newton. As a means of cutting you some slack on this matter, here is what Newton has to say:
“How many Masons fail to grasp the master truth of the Master Degree! And yet the candidate is not altogether to blame, since the historical lecture does not even mention it, much less expound it. That lecture only reminds the candidate that Masonry cherishes the hope of a glorious immortality - that is all. Whereas in the degree itself immortality is not a vague hope to be cherished here and realized hereafter. It is a present reality into which the candidate is symbolically initiated; a fact to be realized here and now. If our ritual does not convey this truth, it behooves us to see that it does, first by laying hold of the truth ourselves, and second by so shaping our ceremony, or at least by so explaining it, as to make the truth unmistakable. Manifestly, if we are immortal at all, we are immortal now, and to know that fact is the one great human experience.”
Basically, Newton is admonishing the Craft that the candidate cannot be blamed for not realizing what most of the officers don't even realize. And that in order for the truth of the matter to be known, the responsible officers must first lay hold of the truth themselves, and than reshape the ritual so as to make the truth unmistakable.
What about this one: 'Raised from a dead level to a living perpendicular' suggests far more than a physical accomplishment." ('Officers Manual of Lodge Organization and Operation' - Grand Lodge of Nevada, page 96)
Ephraim my purpose is that masonry is a religion. But at least Masonic Traveler had the guts to admit it. While on the other hand many people come on here and say it isn't. But by the authors, monitors, and other sources that's not the case.
Jean
Het Jean,
ReplyDeleteYAWN.......
do you have an original thought?
We have all read this stuff and it has not changed our minds, find weaker minds to try and infuence...
please....
your trolling the wrong waters here....
The obsession people like Jean have is amusing. No one cares but them, yet they rattle on repeating the same tired stuff over, and over, and over again....
ReplyDeleteEphraim my purpose is that masonry is a religion.
ReplyDeleteWhy? What do you hope to gain from that?
Jean has told us many things about Freemasonry, or our "religion", as she likes to put it. Well, nobody really asked for that, but thanks anyway. If it weren't for her constantly ignoring that there is no dogma in Freemasonry (that's at least how it is taught and practiced in my Grandlodge over here in Europe), and thus no obligation for me as a Mason to share the individual points of view of Pike, Hall, Mackey, and all the other people she cites time and again, I would maybe try to follow her thoughts -- for now, already the basic assumption of her "argumentation" is plain wrong, and I can just repeat that even a "Nevada Masonic Monitor", in which has been put down in writing yet another individual's approach to Freemasonry, has absolutely no meaning to me if I do not decide so. We Freemasons tend to think on our own, Jean. Whether Freemasonry is my religion or Christianity is not within your field of responsibility; I ask you to leave this decision to me, my conscience, and God.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, Jean, I would recommend using another dictionary. An allegory is by no means only a "long and complicated story", as I can tell you from years of studying and teaching comparative literature and art history. This definition is especially faulty for leaving out one important thing: that the "underlying meaning" is to be extracted by interpretation. And every educated person knows that two interpretations of one and the same image or text can hardly be identical. By now, you haven't even scratched the surface, let alone understood the "underlying meaning" (I would't dare to claim that for myself, by the way). Yet you dare call every single Mason a liar. Your rant is so clearly untouched by any deeper understanding, nor the attempt to understand, that I almost feel pity for you. I don't want to sit with you in the same bible study class, I would probably ceaselessly bang my head on the table. You seem to be one of those great fellow Christians who see a member of their congregation drinking alcohol in public and then tell everybody that this person's faith seems to be rather unstable -- without knowing anything else about him/her. The English language has a wonderful word for this mindset: bigotry.
But there is something you have not told us yet, and something I deem by far more interesting to all of us: whence your hatred? Whence your aggression?
Your brother in Christ
Ludwig
NEMO said...
ReplyDeleteThe obsession people like Jean have is amusing. No one cares but them, yet they rattle on repeating the same tired stuff over, and over, and over again....
Kinda like your comments. Which are very amusing by the way.
Anonymous I really don't hate freemasonry or freemasons. I hate the fact that the masons do lie about it not being a religion. You can tell it's a religion by the lambskin apron and what is said when the person gets the apron.
Albert G. Mackey, for instance, who wrote, "Freemasonry then, is a religious institution; and on this ground mainly, if not alone, should the religious Mason defend it.", or words to that effect. I have paraphrased because I don't have the source document at my fingertips, and am a little rushed at the moment. However, it is in his encyclopedia if you want to check it out for yourself.
Yeah, but it is an opinion based on what? An opinion based on their working knowledge of the tenets, teachings, and rituals of the Craft.
Doesn't hurt at times to differentiate between authors and scholars. Mackey is deemed to be a Masonic Scholar. Check it out at the website of the GL of South Carolina.
People often refer to the writings of Grand Lodges - not because we accept what they have to say, per se, but because others want to show people the errors in what they say.
So, when we quote the symbolism of the lambskin apron, it is for the purpose of showing Masonic teachings and/or opinions to be in error.
Same thing when people try to claim Masonry is not a religion. People look at what it does in ritual, and what it teaches in its writings, and it is plain to see that Masonry has its own version of a god that it prays to, has its own version of salvific teachings that it promotes, and even engages in its own sort of baptism ceremony.
Masonry is a religion.
Here is what a Grand Lodge teaches, which is very similar to that which is taught here in Nevada:
"You were presented a Lambskin or white leathern apron. The lamb has in all ages been deemed an emblem of innocence. By the lambskin, therefore, the Mason is reminded of that purity of life and conduct which is essential to his gaining admission to the Celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides." ('Kentucky Monitor')
Quite clearly, it is a salvific teaching. It is not telling the initiate what he should do to live a life of morality. It is telling him what it says "is essential to his gaining admission to the Celestial Lodge above, . ."
I believe if you will look at it more closely, you will see that is exactly what it is telling you.
The phrase "I AM" is most certainly prevalent in some of the degree work. This coupled along with the fact that Freemasonry teaches salvation by works, placing an authority of attaining salvation upon one's self.
Tom Accuosti said...
Ephraim my purpose is that masonry is a religion.
Why? What do you hope to gain from that?
Because it's rather funny that a man as intelligent as yourself is just plain stupid to see that masonry is a religion. But I'am sure your kids and grand kids are sharp as tacks...LOL.
Jean
Jean's Christian love is heartwarming. Reading his posts is like listening to someone who only knows a little English attempt to speak the language, because the symbols and ideas he writes about just don't have the meanings he attributes to them. He apparently has read some books about Masonry and thinks he understands it, but he really doesn't. The condescending and arrogant tone of his posts only serves to underscore his lack of understanding of the subject matter. He won't have any luck "converting" Masons, because we can tell by his comments that he doesn't know what he's writing about. Incidentally, I have never met a Mason who thinks of Masonry as his religion. It's certainly not mine. Jean's suggestion that Masons are lying about this is nonsensical. If Masonry were my religion, I'd say so.
ReplyDeleteJean, you still don't get it.
ReplyDeleteI don't care what Albert G. Mackey has written, no matter whether he was deemed a scholar in all things Masonic or not. "Doesn't hurt at times to differentiate between authors and scholars." Yes, it does hurt, because it is entirely unscholarly. There are many scholars in my fields of expertise who know a lot more than I do, but that doesn't mean they are right with everything they write and say, nor does it mean that I have to agree with everything they write and say. As a scholar, I *have* to be skeptic, I *have* to test other people's arguments first before I agree or disagree – a behaviour, by the way, that I expect from every single student in my classes. The three rules I start every class with are: 1. Nothing is true because it has been printed. 2. Every teacher and every author is a human being and thus fallible. 3. There is no "I don't have an opinion of my own on that", there is only "I am to lazy to have an opinion of my own on that". That's what some people call "education towards a free and independent mind", and that's what I am paid for as a teacher, and that's what I enjoy when I am together with my Masonic brothers.
Again: I don't care what Albert G. Mackey has written, nor does any of the brethren in my lodge. His ideas about Masonry may be an interesting, possibly even inspiring read, but they don't need to be mine. I have said it before, and I wasn't the first in saying it: There is no dogma in Freemasonry. If one Grandlodge decides to adopt certain teachings, fine; it has no effect whatsoever on the teachings of another Grandlodge, because they are autonomous in everything with very few exceptions.
Regarding your apron-quote from the "Kentucky Monitor": My lodge is not under the jurisdiction of the Grandlodge of Kentucky. There has not been any "salvific teaching" whatsoever during my initiation, you can be sure of that. This "salvific teaching", as you call it, is the teaching of the Grandloge which issued the Monitor in question. It is not necessarily the teaching of any other Grandlodge, and in fact isn't the teaching of my Grandlodge. So speaking about Freemasonry universal, there is no "error" in the teachings to be proven, as you try so eagerly. You are constantly mixing things up because of the shallowness of your understanding. You are arguing like someone with scant Bible-knowledge would in stating that the Israelites were polytheists, just because there had been times, according to the historical books of the Old Testament, in which some Israelites did worship Baal.
When a prayer is said in my lodge, and the Great Architect of the Universe is mentioned, it is as much the Trinitarian concept of God for me as it is something else for my brothers who aren't Christians (and there are quite a few). And the great thing is, Jean, that we can pray together in peace. Now I know that there are fundamentalists of every religion who want to prevent exactly that, because it threatens the power of fundamentalist leaders. And because of that, these people forbid their followers to meet and mix with people of other faiths and traditions. The best way to do that is by claiming that Freemasonry is a discreet religion, and that a Mason doesn't pray to the deity of his faith when praying to the Great Architect of the Universe. But how can these fundamentalist leaders know which deity I am praying to? Can they read my mind? No, they can't, and in order to make up for this shortcoming, they have to resort to intimidation. And many of their followers are so deeply drenched in unchecked prejudice that they go out and repeat again and again: "Freemasonry is a religion, no Christian/Muslim/whatnot can be a Mason without forsaking Christ/Allah/XXX" or "Masons worship a demon/Satan himself" or "Masons practice witchcraft" etc. etc. etc. pp ad nauseam. But that is certainly not in accord with Christ's commandment of loving your neighbour as you love yourself. Nor is your insulting approach to some people on this forum.
Masonry is *not* a religion.
Ludwig
I would add that none of the Grand Lodge documents Jean quotes support his thesis that Masonry is a religion. It appears to be Jean's wishful thinking that make him think they say that.
ReplyDeleteOne of the many interesting things about Masonry is that a man really has to participate in order to gain an understanding of its symbolism and ideas. Reading a few books simply won't do the job. (I'm not directing this to Jean. This is just an observation.)
ReplyDelete"By the lambskin, therefore, the Mason is reminded of that purity of life and conduct which is essential to his gaining admission to the Celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides." ('Kentucky Monitor')"
ReplyDeleteRead this again very slowly. The operative idea here is that the mason is reminded of the purity of life and conduct that is essential. It DOES NOT SAY that the apron guarantees him salvation or that Freemasonry does, etc. The apron is a SYMBOL that REMINDS the mason of the noble ideas contained in his faith regarding redemption/salvation/etc.
This is, may I remind you, plain English, so it is essential that you understand it as such without the blinders that cause you to see wickedness everywhere and in everything.
And our beloved Jean never responded to me in previous articles when I asked if he thought that purity of life and rectitude of conduct were not necessary for admission to heaven.
ReplyDeleteJean never responded to my citing the "sheep and goats" lecture where Christ didn't say anything about believing in Him, but how you treated your fellow humans.
To quote Arte Johnson: "Veeerrry Intereshtinck, but shtupid."
Traveling Man
why is it that jean has been copying-and-pasting virtually the same argument/post in every single comments thread?
ReplyDeletenot only is it incredibly annoying, but it also proves absolutely nothing.
this is why the christian church is steeped in dogma - nothing can change, and when you offer valid arguments against whatever half-brained idea christian may have, it ultimately doesn't change their point of view.
so seriously jean, what's your point?
and more accurately, why should we care?
c.z
Is this the best you got? You people couldn't back up anything to save your lives good god.
ReplyDeleteEvery Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instructions in religion. ... This is the true religion revealed to the ancient patriarchs; which Masonry has taught for many centuries, and which it will continue to teach as long as time endures." Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma, pg. 213
"(Masonry) is the universal, eternal, immutable religion, such as God planted it in the heart of universal humanity. ... The ministers of this religion are all Masons who comprehend it." Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma, pg. 219
Albert Pike was nothing if not inconsistent, but he was real clear about the 'religion' of Masonry. It's restated even today, that Masonry is not "a religion" but "religion." You can't split that hair.
I assume you are Scottish Rite (SJ); if not, you've just confirmed the importance of Pike among Masons in general. Too many Masons have been proclaiming that Pike means nothing to them, that he is merely limited to the SRSJ. If you are not part of that group, you are swimming against the tide, my friend. Either that or they are lying and you are correct.
You say you understand a religion to offer a plan of salvation. So do I:
"The Lamb has in all ages been deemed an emblem of innocence. The lambskin is therefore to remind you of that purity of life and rectitude of conduct which is so essentially necessary to your gaining admission to that Celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides." ('Nevada Masonic Monitor, First Degree - Entered Apprentice', p. 14); and,
"The Master Mason represents man, when youth, manhood, old age, and life itself have passed away as fleeting shadows, yet raised from the grave of iniquity, and quickened into another and a better existence. By its legend and all its ritual, it is implied that we have been redeemed from the death of sin and the sepulchre of pollution." ('Nevada Masonic Monitor, Third Degree - Master Mason', pp. 2&3); and
". .the drama of Hiram the Builder is a symbol of redemption - - and redemption is the central theme of this degree. 'Raised from a dead level to a living perpendicular' suggests far more than a physical accomplishment." ('Officers Manual of Lodge Organization and Operation' - Grand Lodge of Nevada)
Lest there be any doubt as to the redemption referred to here:
"The important part of the degree is to symbolize the great doctrines of the resurrection of the body and the immortality of the soul; and hence it has been remarked by a learned writer of our Order that 'the Master Mason represents a man saved from the grave of iniquity, and raised to the faith of salvation.." ('North Carolina Lodge Manual', p. 53)
In spite of this, regarding a plan of salvation, you say, "Masonry does not do that." Sure it does. I just documented it for you.
Albert G. Mackey, for instance, who wrote, "Freemasonry then, is a religious institution; and on this ground mainly, if not alone, should the religious Mason defend it.", or words to that effect. I have paraphrased because I don't have the source document at my fingertips, and am a little rushed at the moment. However, it is in his encyclopedia if you want to check it out for yourself.
Yeah, but it is an opinion based on what? An opinion based on their working knowledge of the tenets, teachings, and rituals of the Craft.
Doesn't hurt at times to differentiate between authors and scholars. Mackey is deemed to be a Masonic Scholar. Check it out at the website of the GL of South Carolina.
People often refer to the writings of Grand Lodges - not because we accept what they have to say, per se, but because others want to show people the errors in what they say.
So, when we quote the symbolism of the lambskin apron, it is for the purpose of showing Masonic teachings and/or opinions to be in error.
Same thing when people try to claim Masonry is not a religion. People look at what it does in ritual, and what it teaches in its writings, and it is plain to see that Masonry has its own version of a god that it prays to, has its own version of salvific teachings that it promotes, and even engages in its own sort of baptism ceremony.
Masonry is a religion.
Here is what a Grand Lodge teaches, which is very similar to that which is taught here in Nevada:
"You were presented a Lambskin or white leathern apron. The lamb has in all ages been deemed an emblem of innocence. By the lambskin, therefore, the Mason is reminded of that purity of life and conduct which is essential to his gaining admission to the Celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides." ('Kentucky Monitor')
Quite clearly, it is a salvific teaching. It is not telling the initiate what he should do to live a life of morality. It is telling him what it says "is essential to his gaining admission to the Celestial Lodge above, . ."
I believe if you will look at it more closely, you will see that is exactly what it is telling you.
The phrase "I AM" is most certainly prevalent in some of the degree work. This coupled along with the fact that Freemasonry teaches salvation by works, placing an authority of attaining salvation upon one's self.
Opps I did it again.
Jean
Hey everyone,
ReplyDeleteJean posted the same stuff again! Are you convinced this time? "Opps!"
And still no reply to my questions:
ReplyDelete1. Are you saying that purity of life and rectitude of conduct are *not* necessary for entrance to heaven?
2. What about Matthew 25? Sounds like works are necessary for salvation there...
C'mon Jean, I've posted it a bunch of times. Where's your answer?
Traveling Man
Either Jean is a bot or a broken record. Whats new?
ReplyDelete*sighs*
ReplyDeleteNone so blind as them who don't want to see, eh, Jean? Let's try this one more time...
Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instructions in religion.
Right. It's obvious that Pike is writing in a symbolic, and not a literal sense, because Pike, himself, is aware of the number of religions practiced over the unimaginable span of time of which he speaks. He is speaking about religion in a symbolic or metaphorical way; surely you can't be unaware of the fact that most religions have very similar tenets? That's why he writes "religion" and not "a religion" - he's not speaking about any one specifically.
And again, we see your inability to interpret the author when you discuss the apron:
The lamb has in all ages been deemed an emblem of innocence. By the lambskin, therefore, the Mason is reminded of that purity of life and conduct which is essential to his gaining admission to the Celestial Lodge above,
Bold is my emphasis.
The GL of whatever jurisdiction that was posted is very explicit: it's an "emblem." (i.e., a symbol) In the various speeches made during degree work, the word "emblematical" is used several times to reinforce the concept that the symbols are not to be taken literally.
Furthermore, this "emblematical" symbol - e.g., the apron, is mean to "remind" one (that is, to reinforce the symbolic or allegorical nature) of some of the conditions which one needs to enter into the state beyond life as we know it here: Heaven, Nirvana, whatever you call it. Note that this paragraph does not specify that "purity of life and rectitude of conduct" (this expression may vary from place to place) is the only condition. You miss that point that Masonry, not being a religion, isn't concerned with the other conditions peculiar to each different religion; it is only interested in expressing certain moral values. This is a far, far cry from "documenting a plan of salvation."
Now, it's quite possible that there is some religion that does not venerate "rectitude of conduct" nor a "purity of life." I can't think of one. Perhaps you can?
And while I'm on this, do you have a reading comprehension problem? Because you quote the entire paragraph, but miss the point:
"The important part of the degree is to symbolize the great doctrines of the resurrection of the body and the immortality of the soul; and hence it has been remarked by a learned writer of our Order that 'the Master Mason represents a man saved from the grave of iniquity, and raised to the faith of salvation.."
It's right there, Jean: "symbolize" and "represent". Heck, when they wrote "symbolize the great doctrines", which great doctrines did you think they meant? Obviously, the great doctrines of the great religions from around the globe - all of which, I might add, value purity and good living.
And this:
It is not telling the initiate what he should do to live a life of morality.
Of course not, silly! Not being a religion, Freemasonry is not going to tell you how to live; it does however, stress that one should follow the moral teachings of their own religion or theology.
Now, c'mon, Jean, think: what "religion" tells members to follow the teachings of other religions?
Right.
The phrase "I AM" is most certainly prevalent in some of the degree work.
You're going to need to prove that, Jean. I'm rather proficient in ritual, and I certainly wouldn't call that "prevalent." Not that it means anything, except to Old Testament scholars, right?
It is telling him what it says "is essential to his gaining admission to the Celestial Lodge above, . ."
Again, can you tell me what religions do not stress leading a good life? It's not defining what makes a good life, Jean.
One last thing. Mackey seems at odds with Pike over this concept:
"Freemasonry then, is a religious institution; and on this ground mainly, if not alone, should the religious Mason defend it."
Some religious philosophers believe that the only morality is that handed down to us from Deity. Note that Mackey and Pike were both very familiar with the esoteric traditions of many older religions. Freemasonry has always maintained that it is a fraternity based on "the brotherhood of man under the fatherhood of God" and that it stresses the importance of moral truths taught through symbolism and allegory. Can you not see that in Mackey's above quote, he is writing about the concept of morality as a factor of divine wisdom?
Free you mind, Jean, and the rest will follow.
I do not see the corolation between a lambskin apron and attending the Celestail Lodge Above as a salvation religion?
ReplyDeleteNowhere in Masonic teachings is "salvation". My belief is that masons do not belive they are inherently evil/bad from a "fall" or sin of an ancient ancestor....
At least I do not believe in salvation, I was not born in sin.
My birth is a fall from the ether realm into the material one, and the idea that doing "good works" while existing in this plane is not a new one, and logical.
Some people feel the "need to be saved" idea is wrong and not applicable to them, and that is their God given right.
chill out already and try to preach to others...
It's funny that Jean can keeps repeating the same handful of quotes. You'd think he'd have more than that since he feels so strongly about it, especially since the quotes don't really support his view. Pike, for his part, believed many things that a fundie would disagree with, but Pike's commentaries are just that -- commentaries. Morals and Dogma, as I recall, has a disclaimer up front, which makes clear that the book is simply Pike's researches. That's really all it is. In addition, Pike didn't actually regard Masonry as a religion. Instead, he regarded it is a repository of symbolism from a number of religious traditions. If a snake-handling fundie has a problem with Masonry, it should be this, rather than Jean's unsupported claim that Masonry is a religion. It's a shame that Jean has wasted so much of his time on something no one cares about but him.
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